Uponor colored PEX degradation -- two leaks so far

[hppsocal]

I think about the only thing we know for sure is that Uponor doesn't play well with recirc systems.

John

Why do you think we're seeing a surge in reports in the last few years? Were recirc systems not popular back then? Have you seen issues with the clear pipes? Most of the reports I've seen on this forum have been with the colored ones.

 

[JohnCT]

Why do you think we're seeing a surge in reports in the last few years?

I don't have an answer - I wish I did. All I know is that recirculation seems to aggravate the situation, but not every failure I've read about has had a hot water recirculation system involved, or perhaps it could be batch issues, it could be that many municipalities are using chloramine instead of plain chlorine, or it could be something else that no one has talked about. . I have some theories, but they aren't (yet) supported by real scientific tests made.

Have you seen issues with the clear pipes? Most of the reports I've seen on this forum have been with the colored ones.

I have *personally* never seen any Uponor pipe fail - of any color. All I know is from what I can glean from the reports of other plumbers and homeowners. I have seen pictures of failed white pipe as well, but less of it. Is that because white pipe is less prone to cracking and pinholes? Maybe, but maybe there is simply more colored pipe installed than white. Personally, the only Uponor I've installed is white because I think colored pipe looks amateurish (silly maybe, but that's me). The admittedly small samples of white I've installed have never failed - I am not a professional plumber but have 50 years of amateur plumbing from many property ownerships. Most of my plumbing even today is sweated copper, but I have done some PEX.

So why are the colored pipes the ones we seem to see more of? It could be there's simply more of it around, but if the colored pipe is more prone to fail by percentage of pipe installed, I can only guess why the colored pipe is more prone to failure - I *suspect* that the coloring process is one of what I think are several of the contributing factors of Uponor failure. The coloring process is additive, which means white pipe is then further processed with (from what I've read) heat and radiation to bond the outer colored skin.


John

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jeff H Young]

In the case of a neighbor very recently, Uponor now sent out their own-hired plumbing crew. They only did the underfloor crawl (I haven't followed up on if it was both red and blue). They were not authorized to open walls, but, want the homeowner to just wait and see if or when the walls start leaking (shocking to hear).
A few weeks ago, I was called out to investigate water moisture on a nearby condo. It looks like the hundreds of units in this complex may all have the bad Uponor colored PEX. This was RED Uponor pex on a recirculation system. This is maybe the first in this complex....whoa, what a disaster. Only thing worse would be buying a condo in S.F.'s Millennium Tower that has advanced slightly under 29 inches at the northwest corner.

well its been a few weeks since recieving the call did you go out there yet ? what was the findings other than bad red pipe ? was it leaking ?

 

[Jeff H Young]

Why do you think we're seeing a surge in reports in the last few years? Were recirc systems not popular back then? Have you seen issues with the clear pipes? Most of the reports I've seen on this forum have been with the colored ones.

I think it appears certain years perhaps batches or runs of manufacture are worse than others . also a lot of claims about the colored piping the colored piping was discontinued the assumption is that the coloring is related but I dont assume that if the public dosent trust color than stop the coloring is good for buisness so just a hunch the color itself might not itself be an issue, personally i never liked the coloring. my home is 22 years old with never a problem and Im not a unusual case of never a problem.

 

[John Gayewski]

I think about the only thing we know for sure is that Uponor doesn't play well with recirc systems.

John

Except for the 10's of thousands of them in service. By all means let's take the thirteen stories we've read be the deciding factor on how we think about things.

We have no idea whatsoever as to the cause of this failure. None. Acting like to have any idea why this failure occurred or any of the factors is dishonest.

 

[JohnCT]

Except for the 10's of thousands of them in service. By all means let's take the thirteen stories we've read be the deciding factor on how we think about things.

It's far more than 13 John, we have dozens on this site alone.

Acting like to have any idea why this failure occurred or any of the factors is dishonest.

I'm sorry, was that intended for me? Absent any information from any independent labs or from Uponor themselves, all we have is supposition and opinion.

I've gone out of my way to be very clear that I *don't* know the exact reason why Uponor is failing.

Very clear...

John

 

[Jeff H Young]

Except for the 10's of thousands of them in service. By all means let's take the thirteen stories we've read be the deciding factor on how we think about things.

We have no idea whatsoever as to the cause of this failure. None. Acting like to have any idea why this failure occurred or any of the factors is dishonest.

I agree john I wouldnt be suprised with millions of homes plumbed in pex Uponor to have some failures and wouyldnt be suprised to have more than one cause , defect or mishandling of the product . Seems like a certain area has a problem with a hand ful of issues perhaps a couple sub divisions in or around a city then there could be a few pop up a few years later somewhere else I feel like Every homeowner with an issue winds up here they have a problem they start googling and next thing they areon Terry Loves plumbing site . they are up set dont know what to do want answers and free fixes cant say I blame them
and glad they come share the story most disapear imediatly they come squak and then go away again I dont blame them the could give a rats ass about plumbing they just have a leak that needs fixing and possibly water /drywall damage .
Someare convinced to never ever use uponor again unless Uponor comes foward admitting the causeor causes of failure and proof its been fixed. I havent taken that stand.

 

[John Gayewski]

Its silly to go online and spread guesses.

About the only thing we know is that we don't know. Saying recirculation is a factor in any failure other than piping that has been undersized for the pump it's attached to, is just a guess, and a wild one at that.

 

[JohnCT]

Saying recirculation is a factor in any failure other than piping that has been undersized for the pump it's attached to, is just a guess, and a wild one at that.

It is a guess and it may ultimately prove to be wrong, but I don't think it's a wild guess.

Most examples of failed Uponor pipe we see are the red (hot) pipes, and most of those seem to be coming from homes that have hot water recirculation in a nation where how water recirculation is not in the majority of homes.

John

 

[John Gayewski]

It is a guess and it may ultimately prove to be wrong, but I don't think it's a wild guess.

Most examples of failed Uponor pipe we see are the red (hot) pipes, and most of those seem to be coming from homes that have hot water recirculation in a nation where how water recirculation is not in the majority of homes.

John

If i flip a coin and get heads 20 times and tails 5 times does that mean coins probably flip heads? Or does it mean I'm making guesses with incomplete information?

 

[yannick]

It may only be a hunch/theory and so shall be taken with a grain of salt.
But intuitively I always thought PEX A would be less reliable than PEX B because of the constant tension the pipe has to exert on the fitting, in the long term.
In the long term each plastics become more brittle and dry out because plasticizers eventually don't do their job properly.
And because the pipe becomes more brittle and less "plasticized" that's when the tension makes the pipe crack. Heat cycling probably makes it even worse.

That's why even before hearing about Uponor issues I chose to use PEX B for my first house with DZN resistant brass fittings. Glad I did I guess. And even the PEX B parts (I chose copper for a lot of things), I still have an eye on them long term.

 

[JohnCT]

But intuitively I always thought PEX A would be less reliable than PEX B because of the constant tension the pipe has to exert on the fitting, in the long term.

It's true that most examples of failures we see are at the expansions, but there are enough examples of cracks and pinholes along an unexpanded length of pipe to *suggest* that the pipe is aging prematurely (hot water seems to aggravate it yes) and that a pipe becoming brittle might be more prone to fail both at the expansions and on a formed corner radius than any straight or unexpanded sections.

John

 

[Breplum]

Update on what I said previously about Uponor "crew" sent to my neighbors $4 million dollar home:
Their in-house crew was Repipe Specialists, a national company. I've seen the pictures of what they did underfloor and it sucks badly with wrong clamps (mostly they used two eared plastic straps, vs the single nail type made for PEX). They pulled old insulation and cut around where the straps were, put old insulation back so it is gapped at the adhesive strip cause it has no adhesive any more and pipe is fully exposed and the insulation is not continuous. Abominable ! total junk plumbing.
Neighbor called Uponor and complained. They are having to have another high-end quality crew come and redo all the strapping and replace the insulation completely and agreed to go open the walls now and redo the risers too.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Update on what I said previously about Uponor "crew" sent to my neighbors $4 million dollar home:
Their in-house crew was Repipe Specialists, a national company. I've seen the pictures of what they did underfloor and it sucks badly with wrong clamps (mostly they used two eared plastic straps, vs the single nail type made for PEX). They pulled old insulation and cut around where the straps were, put old insulation back so it is gapped at the adhesive strip cause it has no adhesive any more and pipe is fully exposed and the insulation is not continuous. Abominable ! total junk plumbing.
Neighbor called Uponor and complained. They are having to have another high-end quality crew come and redo all the strapping and replace the insulation completely and agreed to go open the walls now and redo the risers too.

crappy crew at the least could be the entire company Repipe Specialists or just this crew. Bigger companies often have the proper insureance , office staff , salesmen appear more professional with new trucks and uniforms but not always better work

 

[yannick]

It's true that most examples of failures we see are at the expansions, but there are enough examples of cracks and pinholes along an unexpanded length of pipe to *suggest* that the pipe is aging prematurely (hot water seems to aggravate it yes) and that a pipe becoming brittle might be more prone to fail both at the expansions and on a formed corner radius than any straight or unexpanded sections.

John

Yes totally agree with you that the pipe itself probably has manufacturing defects.
But I doubt any PEX-A pipe would last say... 50 or 60 years like some copper homes here that are 60+ yrs old with the original system still pretty much intact. I might be wrong though! PEX is still a great product, I'm just unsure about the long longevity.

Are there pro plumbers here who still trust the Uponor brand after they claim having corrected the manufacturing defects? Not saying they shouldn't be trusted here, I'm just genuinely curious if you guys think the new product is solid granted they probably double checked their things by now to avoid future problems.

 

[JohnCT]

Yes totally agree with you that the pipe itself probably has manufacturing defects.

I want to be clear that I don't know why Uponor pipe fails in certain locations but not most of them. It could be a manufacturing defect, it could be water chemistry on location, it could be UV exposure (either on site or in pre-installation storage), or it could be something else no one has talked or even thought about.

I'm just genuinely curious if you guys think the new product is solid granted they probably double checked their things by now to avoid future problems.

As far as I know, Uponor has never said they had a defect or defective batch or corrected any such defect. As far as I know, it's the same pipe as it's always been.

John

 

[Jeff H Young]

Some people belive there has been no change whatsoever in the manufacture of Uponor pex because Up0onor hasent made a public comment admitting that its defective and what the problem was and how they fixed the issue .
I think manufactures make changes to product to improove them and often dont anounce that they did anything Especialy if they have never admited a problem . or its isolated cases

 

[GReynolds929]

We use Uponor and other brands of pex A on a daily basis. No issues on our end.

 

[John Gayewski]

We use Uponor and other brands of pex A on a daily basis. No issues on our end.

Same. No issues to report after thousands of installs.

 

[Jeff H Young]

my home 22 years no problems all around me lots of pex and some cpvc, some copper in neighboring homes say 500 . the cpvc ive heard of several slab and other leaks plus a few busted stub outs on cpvc I cant remember any pex other than rats chewing at it on crawlspace repiped homes