Magical toilet floating in the air

[Th.]

.

Hello.

I am not a plumber. I'm just some schmuck who thought he could figure things out on his own. And while the toilet replacement went reasonably well, there is one problem.

The previous toilet had a 1950s manufacturing date and sat nice and flat on the floor. The flange is ABS and so I suspect it was replaced at some point in the toilet's lifetime.

We decided to switch to a low-flow and picked up an AS Champion. Everything went fine except the toilet would not sit flat on the ground. It wobbled for a year and we kept moving the shims trying to keep it happy. Today we removed the toilet, scraped off the wax, and tried again.

We live in the Bay Area so it never gets that warm so we wondered if maybe the wax never, you know, squished? So we warmed the wax and ... yeah. Didn't help. Wobble wobble.

Then we tried just setting our sexy new toilet on the flange with no wax at all and guess what? It did not sit flat. It just does not sit flat. It seems like the flange is ... too tall? too wide? for the toilet to sit flat.

I've been through these forums looking for anyone who's ever had a flange/toilet issue like this, but without luck. Is this a real thing? Not enough space under the toilet for the flange? The previous toilet sat fine, but is that because it was decades older? Is there something so obvious that no one ever bothers to mention it about toilet placement that we just haven't figured out?

This is a great mystery and any sound wisdom will be accepted. Thank you.

 

[Reach4]

I've been through these forums looking for anyone who's ever had a flange/toilet issue like this, but without luck. Is this a real thing? Not enough space under the toilet for the flange?

The flange should all be less than 1/2 inch above the floor. You could put a straight edge or a flat something on the flange and measure how high the edges come above the floor.

If you use shims with wax, put the shims in place first with a dry fit. Tape them if needed to keep in place. Lift the toilet, and set down the wax. Then drop the toilet on the wax and shims. The point is that once you squish the wax, do not lift or rock. Lifting or rocking will cause fissures in the wax.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Th.]

.

The flange is about exactly 1/2 which is what the space available for it under the toilet seems to be as well. Rather a tight fit.

But it's not weird that this toilet requires shims when the previous toilet in the same space didn't? That's maybe what worries me, is that the situation seems to have changed when nothing changed....

 

[Reach4]

Don't be bothered that two toilets have clearances that differed by 1/16 of an inch. Does the flange deflect when you push on it?

How about a photo of the high flange, and show the hole dimension.

 

[Th.]

.

The flange was definitely solid and unmoving.

We've got the toilet installed now with the least wobble yet (shimmed to the gills) so I don't really want to disassemble it without a specific plan, but I'm pretty sure the flange looks normal and it sounds like 1/2" height is normal. There's nothing about American Standard toilets where, I don't know, the ceramic turned out too shallow?

If I have to just live with this, I can accept that, it just seems strange that one toilet would lie flat and the next would not, when nothing about the floor or flange had changed....

 

[Terry]

Are you sure the bowl would sit flat any any floor? Sometimes the bowls are not flat.
When and if I have to shim, I prefer shimming the back of the bowl, pinning the front of the bowl down to the floor.

 

[Jadnashua]

The clay shrinks quite a bit during the manufacturing process, and there can be variations in the final size. FWIW, Toto uses a different process than most (if not all) others in that their clay is a lot dryer (almost 'injected' into the mold verses being poured in as a liquid), so when it dries then is fired, it shrinks much less. This helps them keep size variations to a minimum. AS over the years has had some issues with quality control and consistency. As Terry indicated...will the toilet sit flat by itself? The bottom may not be flat. It's also possible that the right-angle edges common on an all-plastic toilet flange won't fit into the rounded horn opening in the toilet because of a defect. Most plumbers much prefer to install a toilet flange with a SS rim on it...the metal is stronger, and the whole flange is lower, eliminating many of the issues you have.

Any toilet movement can open up the wax seal. Normally, that won't produce a waste leak unless there's a drain line backup, but can provide a path for sewer gasses to escape. The wax doesn't rebound when squished while the toilet rocks one way, and thus, opens up when it rocks the other. This is why it is critical for it to be solid once set on the floor. You only get one chance per wax seal to get it right.

 

[Th.]

.

This is very helpful, thank you. Just understanding the why goes a long way towards making the best decisions.

We did shim in the back---we learned that from the annoyances of last year's not-quite-a-success. If we decide we have to take it up again, we'll try the stainless flange and see if the height difference matters, as the toilet did sit flat away from the flange.

Thanks, everyone! I feel like I have a much better knowledge base to work from now.