Vacuum breaker for tub handheld

[Tuttles Revenge]

We are installing this Kohler deck mounted tub filler K-26441-4-2MB which has a handheld. The handheld is required to have a vacuum breaker which is not part of the Kohler valve (confirmed in the instructions and with Kohler tech support). Does anyone have any ideas on how to get a nice looking vacuum breaker to fit this scenario? I know they make them for shower handheld showers K-9660-2MB, but I believe that they dump water when turned off which will likely just leak under the tub.

*Note* the installation instructions mention a Sioux Chief 652-AD VacuRrestor for vacuum breakers and they mistakenly refer to that device as a vacuum breaker, its not, its just labeled incorrectly in the Kohler instruction manual.

 

[wwhitney]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get a nice looking vacuum breaker to fit this scenario?

The code sections (UPC 417.3 or IPC 424.2) don't call out a vacuum breaker in particular, just an ASME A112.18.3 backflow prevention device. Not my area of expertise, but it appears there are dual check valve devices that meet ASME A112.18.3. So maybe you can install a dual check valve or similar backflow preventer that won't discharge water?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jeff H Young]

depending on the wording kohler has put in thier instructions it might be technically illegal to install as we do have to comply with manufacture instructions and code . so if kohler says to install a vaccum breaker and code says you dont need a vaccum breakler specifically it might . incorrectly calling it a vacuum breaker but calling out by model number as acceptable though should make it fine to use (providing it conforms to the applicable ASME referance) . But again only if kohler didnt specificaly state it must be a vacuum breaker. If kohler did screw that up then they made it illegal to use on thier product . at least thats how I see it.

 

[TJRAD]

ignoring the words written in the instruction and looking at the diagram only. I see this device installed on the mixed water inlet to your roman tub spout and when pulling the lift knob on the spout it diverts to the handspray. Installing a water hammer arrestor in this type of install is weird but does make more sense then a vacuum breaker...
thats my two cents.
good luck.

 

[Breplum]

no way they make em in that finish. chrome or rough brass, all ugly. there is a check valve already on that Kohler faucet.
WHammer arrestor is nonsense.
Normally recognized as not needing backflow prevention because when water flow is shunted to the sprayer, the spout opens, thereby preventing backflow completely

 

[Jeff H Young]

Im not familiar with this particular valve . but reading the kohler instructions they recomend using the 652 ad which is a water hammer arrestor so why not install that ? I doubt this valve dosent conform to upc after taking second look I dont see a reason you cant install the water hammer aresstor its clear thats what they want its nothing to do with cross contamination

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

The code sections (UPC 417.3 or IPC 424.2) don't call out a vacuum breaker in particular, just an ASME A112.18.3 backflow prevention device. Not my area of expertise, but it appears there are dual check valve devices that meet ASME A112.18.3. So maybe you can install a dual check valve or similar backflow preventer that won't discharge water?

Cheers, Wayne

I'll have to do more research in what types of double checks I can install that are reasonable to install. I really don't want to install this style of double check

which requires maintenance and I believe that these require specific location restrictions for testing.. ie, can not be installed too low or too high.

ignoring the words written in the instruction and looking at the diagram only. I see this device installed on the mixed water inlet to your roman tub spout and when pulling the lift knob on the spout it diverts to the handspray. Installing a water hammer arrestor in this type of install is weird but does make more sense then a vacuum breaker...
thats my two cents.
good luck.

Its kinda weird. The water hammer arrestor is specifically called a VacuRester.. or some such. Kohler tech couldn't tell me what its function is. Maybe if I present the gobbledeygook manual to the inspector I can bamboozle them into signing off.

no way they make em in that finish. chrome or rough brass, all ugly.
there is a check valve already on that Kohler faucet.
WHammer arrestor is nonsense.

I had a project in the 90s with this exact scenario. Inspector insisted that the backflow of the diverter was not and approved device. So I threaded a 6" brass nipple and rough brass vacuum breaker onto the hose and inserted it into the deck mounted holder for inspection with the hose and handheld dangling in the tub. The inspector signed me off but asked "if I was going to remove the vacuum breaker?".. "Yes.. as soon as the door closes behind you". I will go this route again if needed.

Im not familiar with this particular valve . but reading the kohler instructions they recomend using the 652 ad which is a water hammer arrestor so why not install that ? I doubt this valve dosent conform to upc after taking second look I dont see a reason you cant install the water hammer aresstor its clear thats what they want its nothing to do with cross contamination

I've never installed this one either. I should have it in stock soon, so I'll get to futz with it for a bit before I send it out. I just would rather have something in place before we place a slab of quartz stone over the top of the tub and the entire works become inaccessible.

 

[John Gayewski]

The way I'm understanding this is a hand held sprayer is able to be held below the flood rim of the fixture. Meaning there is no air gap for the handheld and it can theoretically be held under water and back flow bathwater into the piping.

Can you put a clip on the hose so it can not be pulled out far enough to infringe on the air gap requirement but also be reasonably used?

If not there's no way other than a typical vacuum breaker for a handheld shower. Along with a ball valve type of shut off so it doesn't spray on the floor when not in use.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

The way I'm understanding this is a hand held sprayer is able to be held below the flood rim of the fixture. Meaning there is no air gap for the handheld and it can theoretically be held under water and back flow bathwater into the piping.

Can you put a clip on the hose so it can not be pulled out far enough to infringe on the air gap requirement but also be reasonably used?

If not there's no way other than a typical vacuum breaker for a handheld shower. Along with a ball valve type of shut off so it doesn't spray on the floor when not in use.

Unfortunately the handheld will always be able to fit under the flood level since its deck mounted. I know functionally the diverter will be an effective means of backflow. Once pressure is turned off, as in a back siphonage scenario, the diverter will default to the tub filler effectively creating an air gap. But I want to have some Ace in my sleeve in case the inspector pulls the Diverter is not an approved device card. Something that is installed, looks appropriate and I can leave in place is preferable, but another undercounter non spilling device would be a close second option too.

The location is a city that I believe the plumbing inspector is also the building inspector, so I'm assuming they won't know too much about backflow in this scenario, so likely a moot point.

 

[Jeff H Young]

the tub valve complies to upc code 417.2 and 417.3 I belive and has asme A112.18.1 in its specs therefore dosent require the A112.18.3 type backflow preventer.
I might be missing something but why does anyone think kohler is making illegal tub valves Id call them and ask I guess and probebly take thier word for it but I didnt check the codes till now and I dont see a problem

 

[Breplum]

You do know that hoses go bad all the time, so full permanent access underneath is required if not hard piped.
I can't tell you how many failed hoses we've run across with no access.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

the tub valve complies to upc code 417.2 and 417.3 I belive and has asme A112.18.1 in its specs therefore dosent require the A112.18.3 type backflow preventer.
I might be missing something but why does anyone think kohler is making illegal tub valves Id call them and ask I guess and probebly take thier word for it but I didnt check the codes till now and I dont see a problem

I'll take a closer look at those code sections. I just remember getting shot down by an inspector years ago for basically the same situation.

You do know that hoses go bad all the time, so full permanent access underneath is required if not hard piped.
I can't tell you how many failed hoses we've run across with no access.

Yeah.. and this tub is going to be undermounted below a slab. They already are making access for the motor/electrics under the tub on one end. I'm sure they can make access for the hose as well. Some magnetic pop out tile panel of some sort.


But wait, theres more! It gets better with this tub! The air jet system has instructions to hook it up to the Hot water supply. The last owner provided tub we did that had this setup we had to install a RPBA at the water heater and a dedicated supply to the hot connection to the tub. Tech support claims there is a check valve on that, but could only provide a part number that is impossible to look up.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Been gone about 5 days and wondering if after looking at the codes and specs on the valve if we agree it complies ? I understand inspector might not know , care , or understand this and itll likely not get mentioned . but we want to understand for the next one.
Intresting the other issue on the hot water to the air jet system. Appliance issues I haent dove into , very deeply just like our d/w has an airgap , but protecting the water supply is all internal no backflow or check valve installed on the hot. My R/O undersink requires air gap but many places allow a check valve in the discharge line

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

I'm not 100% certain that the manufactures check valves will be enough for the city. I'll know when we get something installed. I know that I'm going to ensure that the water supply is routed close to the motor access in case we have to resort to drastic measures. The tubs are getting undermounted, so once they're in.. They're in!

 

[Jeff H Young]

I'm not 100% certain that the manufactures check valves will be enough for the city. I'll know when we get something installed. I know that I'm going to ensure that the water supply is routed close to the motor access in case we have to resort to drastic measures. The tubs are getting undermounted, so once they're in.. They're in!

These are very grey areas to me all these specs astm , codes, the upc stamp etc. Unfortuanatly I hate to blindly rely on an inspector or anyone telling me i have to do something unless i fully understand why. all our home appliances just hook up like clothes washers and dishwashers as far as water goes , If Im plumbing something wrong I want to at least know it , Without the tub info its hard to guess

 

[John Gayewski]

Most municipalities that want their water supply protected will require it at the service line coming into the house. There shouldn't be a need to protect every fixture or appliance that is approved by code and within the house, at least as far as the city is concerned. I think some fixtures like toilets are required to have extra protection, but that's required within the code. A dishwasher should have an air gap where the water actually dumps into a tub and is pumped from there. It's usually on the side of the dishwasher after the solonoid.

 

[Fitter30]

Look at product overview its a sealed unit. More like water hammer arrestor
www.supplyhouse.com/Sioux-Chief-652-AD-Vacu-Rester-Vacuum-Breaker-Arrester-1-2-MIP-Thread?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=search_sku&utm_campaign=Search_SKU_Plumbing_X_Exact_X&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI15qQ5MnWhgMV2UlHAR38Lwf0EAAYASAAEgJK8fD_BwE

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Most municipalities that want their water supply protected will require it at the service line coming into the house. There shouldn't be a need to protect every fixture or appliance that is approved by code and within the house, at least as far as the city is concerned. I think some fixtures like toilets are required to have extra protection, but that's required within the code. A dishwasher should have an air gap where the water actually dumps into a tub and is pumped from there. It's usually on the side of the dishwasher after the solonoid.

Seattle has an "Open" water system.. no check valves on the meters or service lines unless the property owner installs them. Some other nearby jurisdictions have tried to install checks on all their meters, but from what I understand, have not gotten all of their meters done. Tho they have gotten RF technology on the meters.. $$

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Look at product overview its a sealed unit. More like surge protector.
www.supplyhouse.com/Sioux-Chief-652-AD-Vacu-Rester-Vacuum-Breaker-Arrester-1-2-MIP-Thread?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=search_sku&utm_campaign=Search_SKU_Plumbing_X_Exact_X&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI15qQ5MnWhgMV2UlHAR38Lwf0EAAYASAAEgJK8fD_BwE

Yeah. That's what I gathered it was. Tho in the instructions it refers to that item as a vacuum breaker. Maybe I can install it and point to the instructions and be done with it.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Most municipalities that want their water supply protected will require it at the service line coming into the house. There shouldn't be a need to protect every fixture or appliance that is approved by code and within the house, at least as far as the city is concerned. I think some fixtures like toilets are required to have extra protection, but that's required within the code. A dishwasher should have an air gap where the water actually dumps into a tub and is pumped from there. It's usually on the side of the dishwasher after the solonoid.

Ive never seen nor heard of single family homes needing a backflow device on the whole house , though we have to have one on the irrigation in my city but dont know how widespread it is .
What I was talking about on the dishwasher is protecting the water supply an airgap dosent protect the water system it protects the dishes just like an airgap on a sink drain that leads to a floor sink does on a restuarant sink

Yeah. That's what I gathered it was. Tho in the instructions it refers to that item as a vacuum breaker. Maybe I can install it and point to the instructions and be done with it

instructions just call it the wrong name they are recomending a hammer arestor at the one place.
I was hoping Wayne would re read those codes and astm specs maybe he would agree I think he missed something there but only about 90 percent sure . I only guess no one else has read the info you provided sure seems clear to me no backflow is needed because the valve complies