Is "Vacuum Breaker Arrestor" really needed here?

[Paul Reece]

I have a deck mounted, three-hole filler spout on my bathtub, and I want to replace it using the same holes to install a three-piece unit consisting of a mixer valve, spout with diverter, and hand shower.
Hole spacing is not an issue.
Kohler's installation guide recommends the installation of a vacuum breaker arrestor as cited here.
Do you believe it is warranted and justified?
Also, Kohler refers ONLY to copper tubing installations, but I'm pretty sure that when I open up that wall (from the shower side), I'm going to find PEX. Can I just continue the plumbing run with PEX, or is there some valid reason why the manufacturer is hung up on copper?
Many thanks. I look forward to hearing from any and all of you. -paul

 

[Reach4]

Interesting. The term was new to me.

https://www.siouxchief.com/products/supply/arresters-and-trap-primers/arresters/vacurester

It seems to me that it does not perform the normal "vacuum breaker" function, but is instead a type of water hammer arrestor with some kind of a variation. My first thought was that it could be like a regular water hammer arrester, but with a lower precharge inside. On second thought, I think it would need to be more complex, because it would have to deal with various water pressures, and be able to both absorb and supply water to smooth the pressure.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

The Kohler instructions are to install the valve to the local code requirements but not any exact specific materials unless the valve they provide has only solder connections. You can install PEX in any of that if you wanted to. But you may need to solder adapters to their valve. I would recommend removing the valve cartridge prior to soldering to avoid ruining the rubber and plastic cartridge.

Most jurisdictions do require a vacuum breaker of some sort when you have a hose that can be immersed into a vessel of water that can become contaminated. So the answer would be yes, if your local jurisdiction requires the use of a vacuum breaker in that scenario.

PS.. I've never heard of that particular piece of equipment either.. I've never seen a vacuum breaker that doesn't leak a tiny amount of water if its located below the outlet of the device its protecting.. but I've never heard of a sealed vacuum breaker.

 

[Paul Reece]

Interesting. The term was new to me.

https://www.siouxchief.com/products/supply/arresters-and-trap-primers/arresters/vacurester

It seems to me that it does not perform the normal "vacuum breaker" function, but is instead a type of water hammer arrestor with some kind of a variation. My first thought was that it could be like a regular water hammer arrester, but with a lower precharge inside. On second thought, I think it would need to be more complex, because it would have to deal with various water pressures, and be able to both absorb and supply water to smooth the pressure.

Thanks, Reach, for helping an old guy feel not quite so uninformed. Taking you response in tandem with the code considerations from Tuttle, I guess I'll just have to put it in. -p

 

[Paul Reece]

The Kohler instructions are to install the valve to the local code requirements but not any exact specific materials unless the valve they provide has only solder connections. You can install PEX in any of that if you wanted to. But you may need to solder adapters to their valve. I would recommend removing the valve cartridge prior to soldering to avoid ruining the rubber and plastic cartridge.

Most jurisdictions do require a vacuum breaker of some sort when you have a hose that can be immersed into a vessel of water that can become contaminated. So the answer would be yes, if your local jurisdiction requires the use of a vacuum breaker in that scenario.

PS.. I've never heard of that particular piece of equipment either.. I've never seen a vacuum breaker that doesn't leak a tiny amount of water if its located below the outlet of the device its protecting.. but I've never heard of a sealed vacuum breaker.

Good background info, and sound guidance. Thank you, TR. I'll put it in, using PEX where it looks safe and reliable. -p

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

I'm baffled by the Kohler drawing with the "vacuum breaker arrester" where its located. I would interpret the drawing (if it had no wording) to be a Water Hammer Arrestor, not a vacuum breaker. But knowing that any hose that can reach into a tub needs a vacuum breaker to prevent back siphonage.. its location just doesn't make sense.

But the device that Reach 4 linked has to be what is intended for that application, but I have ZERO clue how it works or why.. never heard of a device like that.

I think that the device is not really intended to prevent back siphonage, but to prevent water hammer.

 

[Paul Reece]

I'm baffled by the Kohler drawing with the "vacuum breaker arrester" where its located. I would interpret the drawing (if it had no wording) to be a Water Hammer Arrestor, not a vacuum breaker. But knowing that any hose that can reach into a tub needs a vacuum breaker to prevent back siphonage.. its location just doesn't make sense.

But the device that Reach 4 linked has to be what is intended for that application, but I have ZERO clue how it works or why.. never heard of a device like that.

I think that the device is not really intended to prevent back siphonage, but to prevent water hammer.

The "device that Reach 4 linked" is indeed the item that Kohler specifies for this application. I didn't include that info in my OP because it was on another page of the Installation Guide. As you say, it appears that Kohler is more focused on pressure than on vacuum. I don't know if it clarifies any of your concerns, but I include it here. -p

"Kohler Co. recommends installing a Sioux Chief 652-AD vacuum
breaker arrestor (or equivalent) close to the outlet of the remote
valve. This will reduce cavitation and water hammer when the
valve or diverter is activated. Visit Sioux Chief’s website at
siouxchief.com for technical and installation information."

Also, TR, I notice that the document that Reach linked to appears to describe three alternative locations for placing this "breaker/arrestor" in the plumbing pattern. They appear to address three separate concerns or approaches to those concerns. The copied recommendation I inserted above, is from the Installation Guide for my specific faucet/hose appliance, and appears to use the placement option that puts the breaker/arrestor between the diverter valve (located in the spout) and the five-foot long hose served by the diverter.

 

[Jadnashua]

The Grohe handheld I have came with a chromed vacuum breaker adapter that fits on the hose. As noted, it does leak a little when you shut off the water, so in mine, it's where it can drain into the tub. Not sure how that would work for yours. The vacuum breaker might fit on either end of the hose.

 

[Paul Reece]

The Grohe handheld I have came with a chromed vacuum breaker adapter that fits on the hose. As noted, it does leak a little when you shut off the water, so in mine, it's where it can drain into the tub. Not sure how that would work for yours. The vacuum breaker might fit on either end of the hose.

Yeah, Jim, it appears that this new "sealed," no-leak unit is a recent innovation by Sioux Chief and serves more than one purpose... maybe depending upon WHERE it's placed in the water flow. Thanks for your input. -p