3 Inch copper waste pipe cracked and leaking.

[Jason Ram]

Hello All,
This is my first post but I have been browsing the tutorials and DIY section for a bit. I recently noticed water leaking through one of the door jambs in our house. I took my time and tracked down the leak before drilling or cutting. I found the leak in the three inch copper waste pipe coming off of the toilet. I originally thought that it was the smaller copper pipe in the picture (the drain from the shower since I only see water in the door jamb when draining the tub.

Once I cut the the floor open and drained the tub, I placed my hand under the copper tub drain pipe, I had zero moisture along the entire pipe... But, looking down the toilet waste pipe, I could see a little water flowing in the opposite direction up the waste pipe when I drain the tub. Then I could see that the leak was from cracked or corroded 3 inch waste pipe, I can feel a crack on the bottom. It's strange that I've never noticed water in the jamb when flushing the toilet, only when draining the tub.. I am assuming that the volume is the reason for this?.

The drain pipe from the tun takes a left turn in to a junction after the 3 inch waste pipe. It looks like I can just cut the copper pipe off and leave an inch or two near this junction. I was then thinking about cutting the cracked section of about 8 inches completely out.

One of the images shows an orange line that curves to the left(this is where it looks to go into a brass junction in which the sink drain also attaches.

Can I just replace this section with PVC and a rubber coupling on each side? The bend in the pipe looks pretty good and I'm thinking I can cut it and still have a two inch straight section for a coupler.

By the way, all of this is very easy to get to once I remove more of the floor(we are doing a remodel in a year anyway.

Also, sorry for my rookie terminology as I have done very little plumbing. I wanted to give this a try since it is so easy to access.

 

[Reach4]

Can I just replace this section with PVC and a rubber coupling on each side? The bend in the pipe looks pretty good and I'm thinking I can cut it and still have a two inch straight section for a coupler.

Yes. You need banded couplers.

I don't know if 2 inches is enough. You will have to check the dimensions on the couplers.

You can use banded couplers to connect PVC to copper. While Fernco makes banded couplers, when people say "Fernco coupling" they are usually referring to the unbanded ones that came first. Mission became associated with the banded couplers. They now both make both kinds.

https://www.fernco.com/plumbing/shielded-couplings/proflex-couplings
http://www.missionrubber.com/Products/BandSealCouplings.php

It looks to me as if you would want Fernco 3007-33 or Mission PK-33 for 3 inch.

As exposed as you are, you might be better replacing more including the toilet flange. Maybe not.

Have you been using some really powerful drain cleaner in there? Stop it. If you were adding chemicals because the toilet was clogging, you might want to get a new toilet. I wonder if the pipes were taking the punishment for the crimes of the toilet.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jason Ram]

Hi Reach4, thanks for the help. I will look into the couplings, I was also thinking about just replacing the entire section. I don't think it would be much more work. Would I go all PVC if I did this? As far as the corrosion of the drain pipe.. We have some of the worst water here in Western Minnesota. I've never had a clog in that toilet that didn't work loose with a plunger, but the people who owned the house before us could have used draino or a similar product. I have been told that water heaters will last about 5 years if we're lucky.Even with a water softener, the water is really hard! I'm wondering if the water has just been sitting in the pipes and causing the damage..

 

[Jason Ram]

One more thing I forgot to ask. If I do go ahead and install all new PVC up to the flange, can I just use the banded coupler on the cut side and be fine?

 

[Reach4]

The thing that can be hard on copper is acid water.

When you get the old copper out, examine it. Does it look like it got eaten through, or did it possibly burst from freezing? The freezing part seems unlikely, actually.

You should consider a softener, although that will not help the pipes. It's nice for the toilet, showers, laundry, etc.

Is this city water? If so, find out what the pH and hardness, and other data is/are. If it is your well, you should get a lab water test.

All PVC from where you connect in, except the new closet flange should have a metal ring. I don't know about the rest of the sewer stuff. If your water pH is below 6.5, you could probably use some pH treatment too.

And yes, one banded coupler if you go PVC back to the closet flange.

 

[MKS]

You may try checking the integrity of as much of the copper pipe as you can. Tap on bottom and sides listening for differences is sound, thud versus ting. I could flex the bottom of mine with my thumbs easily. It was bad all the way to the cast iron wye at the overhead sewer.

 

[Jadnashua]

Terry has posted pictures previously of the bottom of copper drainage pipes from a toilet. One of the biggest causes is people that don't flush the toilet overnight after urinating to keep the noise down. The acid tends to flow down the pipe mostly undiluted, eventually eating the bottom of the pipe away. A typical toilet bowl is filled to the brim...when you add anything to it, some dribbles out so that the level stays the same. That tends to be more concentrated urine than must a mixed, diluted bit when you actually flush.

You will need to probably go to a plumbing supply store to get the right banded coupler...those often sold in the big box stores are for PVC-PVC, and with copper, one side needs a smaller ID.

 

[Jason Ram]

Hi Jadnashua. Thanks for the advice on the coupler, I actually went to a big box store and they sole me a PVC to PVC coupler.. I'll be returning that asap. It's funny you mentioned that this usually happens to people who don't flush the toilet at night as we have been doing that for about 6 months now(it's next to our daughter's room and we try to stay quite as not to awaken her). I wish I would have known before.. That said, I can get my hands to the bottom of the pipe and crack is exactly in the bottom center of the pipe and is about 3 inches long. I have found that it is so close to the closet bend that I think I'll go ahead and replace the entire thing with PVC. The other end appears to still be thin but no cracks for at least 8 inches so I think I will try to keep it. Thanks for the help!

 

[Terry]

I pulled this out of a toilet drain. The homeowners didn't flush often enough, and it destroyed the copper pipe.

And here is a plastic drain filling up with salt crystals from urine.

 

[Jason Ram]

post: 512615, member: 1"]

I pulled this out of a toilet drain. The homeowners didn't flush often enough, and it destroyed the copper pipe.

And here is a plastic drain filling up with salt crystals from urine.[/QUOTE]
Wow! That's certainly enough to make want to flush every time!

I cut my bad section of pipe out today and sure enough, I found a 2 inch crack right on the bottom of the pipe. I went ahead and cut out 12 inches past the crack. I now have about 1 1/2 coming out of the brass pipe(I think it's a wye?..

I do have one question though. I bought the correct Fernco copper to cast iron (using the CI side on PVC) fitting from Plumbing supply house out of New York. I am just doing a mock up at this point but I'm finding that the fitting isn't as snug as I'd like on the copper side, I feel like I will crush the copper if I go too tight. Is it ever good to use a sealant on the copper to Fernco fitting just to ensure that it doesn't slide? If yes, what type of sealant?

 

[MKS]

I got my shielded 3 inch copper to PVC connector from a plumbing supply house that has been around a long time. It fit the copper easily. It also included a torque specification in inch pounds. I used the German 'gud n tight' or a couple of white knuckles rule. So far so good.
I guess I could have used my 3/8 torque wrench. No sealant needed.

 

[Reach4]

So far so good.
I guess I could have used my 3/8 torque wrench. No sealant needed.

That 3/8 torque wrench is probably calibrated in ft-lb. The couplers were probably suppose to get 60 inch-lb, which is 5 ft-lb.

 

[MKS]

That 3/8 torque wrench is probably calibrated in ft-lb. The couplers were probably suppose to get 60 inch-lb, which is 5 ft-lb.

Just double checked it, inch pounds and Newton meters. Got it for tightening fasteners in aluminum automotive and motocross vehicles to throttle the good n tight thing. I believe you are right on the 60 inch pounds spec. I have learned to some degree to feel what is going on, remove slack then some stretch. I'm guilty of over tightening.
I think the mission pipe connector clamp mechanism would fail before crushing a sound copper pipe.

 

[Reach4]

I think the mission pipe connector clamp mechanism would fail before crushing a sound copper pipe.

Do you have one of those?

 

[Terry]

I think the mission pipe connector clamp mechanism would fail before crushing a sound copper pipe.

That's why they have torque wrenches for those. The stainless bands can break.

• No. 902 Torque Wrench - The 5/16" drive tightens with a fast ratchet action until the wrench clicks for accurate 60 inch-pounds torque.

I have done so much cast work over the years though, that my hand knows when to stop even if I'm using a 5/16" nut driver.

 

[MKS]

Came home to drip drip drip.
Good learning experience.

 

[MKS]

Broke it using the torque wrench set to 60 inch pounds. Used reading glasses to be sure. Five pound weight made it click one foot away from socket centerline. Not a nasa quality tool. It will get replaced as it is within the last sixteen
Inches of existing copper that ties into the four inch cast iron wye.