Loosing Prime after pressure tank fills, new pump, new check valve.

[bsilverthorn]

I have an odd one. I have a well to my old lake cottage. 2-inch casing, new pump 3/4hp, new pipping, brass fittings, new check valve. I can get the pump to prime, and it will work maybe for one or two fillings of the new bladder tank. Then boom, no water.

Just to the hour prior to changing the pump, I had well water, decent pressure, we had 3 people shower, dishwasher run and a load of laundry, along with washing out the paddle boat with the hose ran 50 feet down to the shoreline. I turned the well power off and he proceeded to change the pump.

The original problem was the well pump would get stuck and not start. It started to increase in frequency. so, I decided to have the pump replaced. In that process the well company that replaced it could not get it to prime after replacement. (Keep in mind no priming issues prior) only a pump that would just hum and not spin. (If tapped it or power cycled it would start back up, no priming needed and go for a bit more, maybe a weekend.) I was initially going to do this myself, but the setup looked different, so I had a company do it.

After he left that I noticed when priming the pump, myself as he left unable to get it to prime, that water was coming back up the well casing when I was priming it.

So, I called him back out and we replaced the foot valve, in hopes that would solve the priming issue as well. It solved the problem of water coming back up the well casing and out the top, but not the issue of losing prime.
Now they are telling me I need an 8k for a new well to be dug and plumbed in.

I have included pictures of the before and after, I am having hard time swallowing in the 3hour install process that my well went dry. They did install a 3/4hp pump, I had 1/2 hp pump.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, a new well is not in the budget this year, and it just feels odd life was happy prior.

 

[Valveman]

If you are losing prime every time you say "boom, no water" then I think you have a suction leak. I would have used two hose clamps per connection with buckles 180 degrees apart. You can get a suction leak from the wrinkle under the buckle or screw. The pipe to the well was changed, somewhere you have a suction leak.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Are you trying to pump water from the lake?


You did say "new well", so I started wondering if there was an old well that you have been pumping from.

 

[bsilverthorn]

If you are losing prime every time you say "boom, no water" then I think you have a suction leak. I would have used two hose clamps per connection with buckles 180 degrees apart. You can get a suction leak from the wrinkle under the buckle or screw. The pipe to the well was changed, somewhere you have a suction leak.

I could definately get more hose clamps. There is only one clamp at the foot valve as well, it does hold prime for 3 or 4 days if the pump is not used. Meaning my pressure gauge seems to only maybe move a pound less when I come back the following weekend.

I am only at the cottage on the weekends for the most part. So when I arrive this weekend, it probably still be sitting at 48 - 50 on the pressure gauge. The issue appears before the pump is running. I hear the pressure tank make a wishing sound like the last bit emptied and then the pump kicks in and try’s to recover. If this makes sense. But often doesn’t.

 

[bsilverthorn]

Are you trying to pump water from the lake?


You did say "new well", so I started wondering if there was an old well that you have been pumping from.

No just from my shallow well into the little lake cottage.

 

[bsilverthorn]

If you are losing prime every time you say "boom, no water" then I think you have a suction leak. I would have used two hose clamps per connection with buckles 180 degrees apart. You can get a suction leak from the wrinkle under the buckle or screw. The pipe to the well was changed, somewhere you have a suction leak.

Total newbie here. When you say buckles? What exactly are referencing? The nut / bolt part of the clamp I am
Guessing. I can put a second hose clamp on each one. I do not want the guy back out so I’m guessing I just heat up the black plastic a bit to pull it apart and put the 15 foot valve out to place a second hose clamp at the foot valve?

 

[Valveman]

Yeah the screw. May not even need to heat it. Just put on the extra clamps with the "Screws" 180 degrees apart. The one on the foot valve doesn't need it as that one is under water.

 

[bsilverthorn]

Probably a nutty thought. The well is old, could it just not be keeping up with the 3/4 horse draw versus the 1/2hp pump that was originally installed.

 

[bsilverthorn]

I could definately get more hose clamps. There is only one clamp at the foot valve as well, it does hold prime for 3 or 4 days if the pump is not used. Meaning my pressure gauge seems to only maybe move a pound less when I come back the following weekend.

I am only at the cottage on the weekends for the most part. So when I arrive this weekend, it probably still be sitting at 48 - 50 on the pressure gauge. The issue appears before the pump is running. I hear the pressure tank make a wishing sound like the last bit emptied and then the pump kicks in and try’s to recover. If this makes sense. But often doesn’t.

Added some Context. Above I missed.

 

[LLigetfa]

The issue appears before the pump is running. I hear the pressure tank make a wishing sound like the last bit emptied and then the pump kicks in and try’s to recover.

There is likely a small suction leak that is putting air above the water in the tank. That "wishing" sound is probably the air pushing the water prime out of the pump. Water molecules move slower through the leak than air molecules.

 

[bsilverthorn]

There is likely a small suction leak that is putting air above the water in the tank. That "wishing" sound is probably the air pushing the water prime out of the pump. Water molecules move slower through the leak than air molecules.

Good point, if I could only find the air leak ;-). Thank you all for responding!

I only need to truly" find the leak if there is one from the injector (front of pump) to the foot valve correct? A small water leak coming out of the top of the pump or past the bladder tank would not cause it I am guessing, as I know I have had leaky pipes in the house before I found them.

The possible issue if I am understanding everyone, is a possible leak between the foot valve and the front of the pump. Foot valve is new along with its attachment to the suction line, only one hose clamp on it, but not as important since it is submerged in water, focus more on the topside I am guessing? The visible line of the suction. Yeah it sounds like the bladder tank empties totally with a mix and and water and then its done, it never recovers. Seems like the pump should cut in just before the tank gets that low, but maybe not.

 

[LLigetfa]

Seems like the pump should cut in just before the tank gets that low, but maybe not.

Not if there is air trapped above the water as it is in addition to the amount of pre-charge.

 

[Bannerman]

I’m guessing I just heat up the black plastic a bit to pull it apart and put the 15 foot valve out to place a second hose clamp at the foot valve?

No. Usually no need to disconnect any connections or remove the existing gear clamps.

Gear clamps maybe fully opened by turning the screw counter-clockwise until the band becomes disconnected from the screw gear at one end. Wrap the open band around the pipe at the appropriate location and reinsert the open end of the band back into the screw gear. Turn the screw clockwise to re-engage the band and continue turning the screw until the gear clamp becomes sufficiently tight around the pipe.

 

[bsilverthorn]

Any thoughts on should I go back to 1/2hp to lower the draw rate from the old well. Maybe it can't keep up with the 3/4hp pump? Just trying to continue to brainstorm why life was good prior.

 

[Fitter30]

Put a gauge on the suction side of pump with tee fitting and valve to check water pressure when pump is off and can inject air to raise pressure if needed to see if there's leaks between foot valve discharge of the pump.

 

[LLigetfa]

Any thoughts on should I go back to 1/2hp to lower the draw rate from the old well. Maybe it can't keep up with the 3/4hp pump? Just trying to continue to brainstorm why life was good prior.

How deep is the well and how far down is the foot valve?

If the problem is only after the pump shuts off and there is enough water while the pump is running, I doubt you are drawing down the well to the point it is sucking air through the foot valve.

I think that reducing the pipe size on the intake is already limiting the draw rate.

 

[Valveman]

3/4 verses 1/2HP shouldn't make any difference. Yes the leak is only on the suction pipe somewhere. You can use foamy shaving cream on the connections, where you can see a hole sucked in the foam where the leak is.

 

[bsilverthorn]

How deep is the well and how far down is the foot valve?

If the problem is only after the pump shuts off and there is enough water while the pump is running, I doubt you are drawing down the well to the point it is sucking air through the foot valve.
I think that reducing the pipe size on the intake is already limiting the draw rate.

I will see if I can find out, the previous owner had no record of anything. Probably some way I could drop something down it and see where it stops.
I do not think the company that put it in measured the amount of poly pipe that they the put in as they seemed to just eyeball it. The bill listed 22 feet used total of black pipe. so, the foot valve is probably 18 to 18.5 feet down. Guessing I would have to pull it again to get an exact. The issue is while the pump is running not stopped. It's when it's trying to fill the bladder tank backup, right after I hear the tank empty per say. It will for 30 seconds maybe then loose prime.

 

[FireMarshalD]

I would have guessed he had some foreign mater drawn into the check valve by the higher hp pump. had that with a lake property with an identical setup. After you rule out a hose leak look at the check valve.

 

[bsilverthorn]

I would have guessed he had some foreign mater drawn into the check valve by the higher hp pump. had that with a lake property with an identical setup. After you rule out a hose leak look at the check valve.

No check valve in place, wasn't one before as well, just a foot valve. Which is basically one, I guess.