HVAC Problems

[Abouthadit]

Been busy on other things trying to get other people out to get more estimates done.
Right now outside unit is facing the street , so with how the theft of A/c units have been going crazy around here. We discussed on having a roof mount unit installed.
Here is the latest guys estimate.

HVAC installation to include; removal and disposal of existing equipment.
Install roof mounted 2.5 ton package heat pump. Includes fixed pitch sheet medal roof curb with plenums, ceiling return register with ducting.
Supply ducting to existing registers, high and low voltage electrical , digital programmable Heat-Pump thermostat : City permit and Title 24 Duct test fees crane costs and system start up.

Trane 13 Seer 8.0 HSPF $7,730.00
Trane 14 Seer 8.0 HSPF $8,465.00

Rheem 13 Seer 7.7 HSPF $7,670.00
Rheem 14 Seer 8.0 HSPF $8,245.00

Maybe I'm way off here , but I was expecting the estimate to come in around $6K for the Trane 14 Seer ?
The estimate is right inline with the bigger companies bids ?

 

[Jimbo]

Trane will always be higher. They are quite proud of their equipment!

Since this thread started, the EPA has thrown a monkey wrench into the R22 picture. The demand for R22 had not decreased as they had wished, mainly because the price had not increased as they had expected. So they have slashed the supply! R22 today is about $450 "internet" price, low $300s wholesale price. I don't know now what an HVAC contractor is charging a retail customer for R22. Probably close to $20 per pound. IMHO, the EPA has accomplished what it wanted, namely the balance of the equation has shifted significantly in favor of new R410 equipment as opposed to new dry22, or even replacing an R22 compressor.

Given the age of your system, you will literally cut your electric bill in half at peak cooling season. That goes a long way to paying for a new 13 or more SEER system

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Nukeman]

Have you done more testing yet? I would want to be sure that I needed a new system before dropping 7k-8k on a new system. What part of Cali are you from again? It makes a big difference in whether the higher SEER is worth it if you were in San Fran vs. LA vs. Death Valley. The price seems a bit high to me, but it depends on local labor rates as well as the fact that you have Title 24 testing, where other parts of the country don't have to worry about that. The fact that your 13-14 SEER runs 7-8k, I would hate to see what an 18 SEER might run... However, we can't see what is involved in your install or know the local labor rates, so it is hard to say what is fair. If you get several quotes, you'll know the going rate in your area for the job.

If you go with a new system, there are several good options. A lot of guys like Carrier or Trane, but there are many other good systems as well. Many use the same parts, so it doesn't matter much. The main thing is getting a good HVAC guy and equipment that will be supported in your area. You don't want to get something that none of the local guys knows how to work on.

For any R410 system, I would make sure that you ask about nitrogen purge, the vacuum levels that they pull to (and for how long), what they do for leak testing, etc. However, if you get a packaged system, these things won't really apply.

 

[Abouthadit]

I live in Northern Ca Sacramento area.
Its all electric where I live no gas. Temps in the summer can easily hit 110 winters usually dips done to mid 30's with some days in the 20's.
I'm not at all knowledgeable on HVAC I have so many tell me that heat pumps don't work past low 40's and that I have heat strips in the ex changer. etc.

I've had a couple more stop by and look at the indoor air ex changer transfer and then to the outside unit and rec a full replacement ..with-out even doing any testing.
I have one more company that is scheduled to come out in a couple of days and I'll see what they have to say.


The estimate I put up yesterday kinda blew me away , because the guy was a good friend of my Fiance's boss and we were told he would be upfront , tell us the truth and be honest with us. But he is more than the last 2 big companies estimates..
He made the comment how slow work is, well,, I don't want to have to make up for his / their slow business.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

A lot of the new heat pumps will indeed run efficiently below 40 degrees and.........0 against 180? Not going to happen, still, your equipment is old and inefficient so replacing it will save you money in the long run

 

[Ballvalve]

I bought 3 graingers combo units on closeout for 700$ delivered, but not heat pumps - outdoor heat/cool units. Made by Trane. So that shows you how low it can go!

Mainstream units, 13, some scratches.

But for me NEVER again any ducted crap in a house, all radiant and a few holes in the walls for ac units. Why should we be at the mercy of the feds that change refrigerant laws like we change our shorts?

 

[Dana]

I sure hope you're changing your shorts on a more frequent schedule than refrigerant regulation updates, eh? ;-)

Abouthadit: You can do a LOT of heating and cooling in a NoCal climate with a $4-5K 1.5-2 ton ductless mini-split at more than 2x the efficiency of any ducted R22 system, but it helps to have a more open floor plan if you hope to heat or cool the whole house with it. Most of the better ones have a heating COP > 3 @ 30F outdoor temp, which is about the whole-system COP (with air-handler power included) that R22 systems had at 50F. With ducted R22 heat pumps a system COP of even 2 @ 30F would be a near-miracle. Even here in central MA where the heating outdoor design temps are around 0F and power costs north of 15cents/kwh it's significantly cheaper to heat with an inverter drive mini-spit than even a top-of-the line oil or propane burner at current fuel prices (and they're starting to sprout up like mushrooms after a rain.) HSPF is a crummy test, but better mini-splits test in the 9.5-11 range, and you never lose anything to duct losses (which are typically 15-20% for ducted systems) or suffer higher infiltration losses from air-handler generated pressure differences. (Even where the HSPF & SEER are comparable between ducted & ductless systems, the real-world performance of the ductless always wins.)

 

[Ballvalve]

I sure hope you're changing your shorts on a more frequent schedule than refrigerant regulation updates, eh? ;-)

The beauty of radiant heat is that your shorts, laid on a nice hot spot in the bath floor get a free pasteurizing each night. A few smacks on the door jamb, and good for another day.

Or for the more picky, a quick hand wash, and then to the floor dryer. Beats all front load washers for eer

 

[Abouthadit]

Well been calling places to get some more out to do some estimates.
Was in Lowe's this past week (I know strike one ) anyways an associate there had a booth set up showing a Trane system and signing people up for an evaluation of existing units etc. I say what the heck so I sign up , get a call from Lowe's : Bob ,we work out a time and date. I have to rearrange / cancel a few other appointments. So now its set, they will be out there Tuesday the 14th at 11:00 AM .

This morning at 10:55 AM I see a truck pull up out front, guy sitting there on his phone , he finally comes up the the door and after we make intros, he tells me he can't get ahold of the installer.(strike two) So we get started and do a little paper work, he tries to call the installer again to no avail.
About 11:20 my phone rings and its the installers company calling me to let me know his installer guys flight was canceled from "Chicago" and he had to take a later flight .The a have ass apology and wants to reschedule like its no big deal , they don't have anybody else available ! (strike three)

First off why the heck is he calling me and not Lowe's ie; Bob.
Bob just stood there looking like a fool not knowing what the heck is going on.
I am fully aware of probably out of every 5-10 or more estimates a company may only get 1 maybe 2 jobs out of it...

But to be that unprofessional , inconsiderate to a possible customer (and to the Lowe's consultant ) to not call ahead and try and work something out instead of waiting 20 minutes passed a scheduled appointment then call to try to half ass fix it.

It doesn't matter on what, customer service just plain sucks anymore...

I've got a couple more coming out in a couple days, I'll see what they have to say.

Thanks for all your input on this...

 

[Abouthadit]

Ok
First Company shows up (through Home Depot) the guy looks over the old system , gets his paperwork out starts doing figures and comes up with $13,600.00.
Trane package on roof/new duct work to existing registers, title 24 , air test ,etc.

Next
Second Company shows up (through Lowe's ) "" "" gets his paperwork out adds it all up same as above Trane package on roof but adding one more duct/register and he comes up with $10,200.00.

Not sure what test they did but the first one came up with 2.75 so recommends a 3 ton system.
Second one came up with 2.5 and recommends a 2.5 ton system.

Man these prices are crazy !

 

[Jadnashua]

Some things to consider...often, if a (good) calc has you between units, the smaller one will tend to be more comfortable than the bigger one. One of the big reasons for discomfort is the humidity levels, and a smaller one running longer will dry the air more than a larger one that turns on and off. An old Trane add claimed that in the same house, with the same a/c exterior unit, the only differences being the air handler, their variable speed air handler extracted enough extra water over a season to fill the average backyard swimming pool. It does this by always starting and stopping a cycle at low speeds. Moving the air over the coils slower lets it linger longer, drawing more water out. If it doesn't satisfy the need, it will ramp up the speed, eventually, if needed, to the max. But then, it ramps back down at the end to extract as much cooling as you've already paid for.

As to the costs to install along with the equipment, hard to say...local labor rates, the complexity of the install, and costs to recycle the old bits all come into it.

It's possible that neither of those bids are 'correct' for what you need. But, consider the variable speed AH as a useful add-on. Actual cost difference is small, but likely much more at retail.

 

[Dana]

And a ultra-high-efficiency 1.5 ton varible-speed mini-splits seem to be ~$4000-4500 everywhere, (before subsidies are applied- final cost is usually lower, sometimes MUCH lower.) If you can stand looking at the interior heads of these things, (or can't, but have a place to mount 'em where you don't have too look at 'em), from a comfort & efficiency point of view they're da BOM!

With an open floor plan a 2-ton would probably handle the whole load (or a 2.5 ton three-head multi-split, which would still be well under $10K for most installs.)

 

[Abouthadit]

And a ultra-high-efficiency 1.5 ton varible-speed mini-splits seem to be ~$4000-4500 everywhere, (before subsidies are applied- final cost is usually lower, sometimes MUCH lower.) If you can stand looking at the interior heads of these things, (or can't, but have a place to mount 'em where you don't have too look at 'em), from a comfort & efficiency point of view they're da BOM!

With an open floor plan a 2-ton would probably handle the whole load (or a 2.5 ton three-head multi-split, which would still be well under $10K for most installs.)

Thanks for the replies !
Any links to show what they look like ?

 

[Jimbo]

http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/en/consumer/product-solutions/product-showcase