copper drain pipe leak at fitting

[Sassnak]

So my 1960s house has copper drains. By chance, I noticed a slow drip at the bottom of the main stack when I had part of the wall open for something else, and after opening up the wall further up I found it is a leak at the fitting. It is pretty obvious in the pic where it has been leaking. Am I correct in guessing this is probably a soldered joint and the solder has failed?

Is there any way to fix this without re-soldering and likely replacing at least a section of the bottom pipe? I'm guessing not but soldering it is beyond my skills so worth asking before I call in a professional. The past year or so has been one unexpected large expense after another, so even if it is a shorter-term fix it would be nice to be able to use that bathroom again.

If I do need to call in a professional to deal with this, should I have them fix just this or would having them replace that whole fitting save me a headache down the road?

 

[WorthFlorida]

Was it wet or looked like it was leaking and dry? Old solder flux usually was acid based to clean the copper as it was soldered. When left on and over the years it would turn green and many interpret it as a corrosion.

The real problem is to find a plumber that knows how to deal with 3" copper. It takes a lot of heat and the standard propane torch may not get hot enough. The looks of it it might have been a "cold" solder joint whereby the solder does not flow properly to totally seal the joint.
Call Love Plumbing, they own this forum and they will have the skills to redo this connection.

Another note, that vertical pipe that looks like conduit, be sure it is not touching the copper. If it is and it's tight, place some kind of insulator between the two to prevent electrolysis. Also, the electrical wire running across should be better anchored and away from the finish wall.

I helped my dad install a second bathroom around 1963, My uncle installed 3" copper drains. When we sold the family home in 2018, it was still working and never leaked. Copper drains are the best when it comes to old homes before PVC or ABS pipe was prevalent.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Sassnak]

Was it wet or looked like it was leaking and dry? Old solder flux usually was acid based to clean the copper as it was soldered. When left on and over the years it would turn green and many interpret it as a corrosion.

The real problem is to find a plumber that knows how to deal with 3" copper. It takes a lot of heat and the standard propane torch may not get hot enough. The looks of it it might have been a "cold" solder joint whereby the solder does not flow properly to totally seal the joint.
Call Love Plumbing, they own this forum and they will have the skills to redo this connection.

Another note, that vertical pipe that looks like conduit, be sure it is not touching the copper. If it is and it's tight, place some kind of insulator between the two to prevent electrolysis. Also, the electrical wire running across should be better anchored and away from the finish wall.

I helped my dad install a second bathroom around 1963, My uncle installed 3" copper drains. When we sold the family home in 2018, it was still working and never leaked. Copper drains are the best when it comes to old homes before PVC or ABS pipe was prevalent.

Well I first noticed it because there were some drips making it to the bottom near the floor. It is a very minor drip but when water is run down the drain, a few drops slide down from there. So for sure there is a leak. I ran water down it while looking and that is also definitely where it is coming from, although not all the way around - I suspect a lot of that is like what you said from the acid based solder flux.

Thanks for the tips on the electrical, I also suspect the one pipe to be electrical conduit. I'll find an insulator to put between that and the drain pipe and also secure the loose romex. This wall is wood paneling that is like swiss cheese with the amount of holes in it lol, so I'll probably end up taking it all off to redo which should let me really get in there. I also need to replace the laundry valves while I have it open, but I can DIY that much.

I will give Love Plumbing a call about it, I wasn't sure if they were taking a break right now or not. Terry helped me (online) with a related problem last year and I do recall him saying copper drain lines are not too common (or modern lol). He said they were fine long term for most places but tend to eventually fail under toilets and sometimes kitchen sinks. So far I've had this problem and a small leak where the toilet flange met the copper, hoping after fixing both that will be it for a long time.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Are there back to back toilets above that 3x1.5 double san tee? Looks like it might be 3x2 but that would have been uncommon for the era.

IMO the best way to make that repair is going to be to remove the double san tee and replace it with plastic. At minimum Two - 3" fernco copper to plastic bands and Two for the 1.5" ... Very very carefully cut the pipe with a fine tooth saw, then match and build the new fitting to go in the same spot.

Copper or Bronze DWV fittings are astronomically priced

 

[Sassnak]

Are there back to back toilets above that 3x1.5 double san tee? Looks like it might be 3x2 but that would have been uncommon for the era.

IMO the best way to make that repair is going to be to remove the double san tee and replace it with plastic. At minimum Two - 3" fernco copper to plastic bands and Two for the 1.5" ... Very very carefully cut the pipe with a fine tooth saw, then match and build the new fitting to go in the same spot.

Copper or Bronze DWV fittings are astronomically priced

Nope, just one full bath up there and that's it. And wow yes that is expensive! I figured any replacements wouldn't be copper due to copper prices these days.

I suppose if I did replace it with PVC I wouldn't need to solder anything, so I may actually be able to tackle it myself which would be great. I have a muscle tremor so soldering will never be easy for me, but I can handle gluing. Do you have a recommendation for a saw? I've got a lot of tools but not sure I have the right one for this (but any excuse to buy more lol).

 

[Weekend Handyman]

If you cut it out, take it to the recycler. You will get a few $ for that.

 

[John Gayewski]

It looks like there's some wood right next to it and some electrical wires. I would say you could probably clean really well and apply some flux at the joint and reseal it with solder, but plastic would be easier and more of a sure thing. Plus all of the surrounding things that don't want to get heated. Four couplings it is.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Yes, this is not a super difficult project. The most difficult part is going to be working around the other copper water lines and the electrical.

The repair bands are about 2" tall, so the upper one is the most difficult because the cut would need to be right between the water lines so that you can access the 5/16" nuts to tighten them.

https://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/dimensional-drawings/pdf/3001-33.pdf

A fine tooth sawzall blade.. specifically a demo blade would be best. They're a tad thicker but wider also so they don't tend to wander off as you're cutting.

One thing I learned working on cars, is that sometimes its easier to remove 5 other components to replace the alternator than it is to try to work around those 5. So It may be easier to remove one or both water lines... But I also have a pro-press gun that allows me to make repairs to the water lines without soldering.. Just depends on the space between those two water lines.

 

[Sassnak]

Yes, this is not a super difficult project. The most difficult part is going to be working around the other copper water lines and the electrical.

The repair bands are about 2" tall, so the upper one is the most difficult because the cut would need to be right between the water lines so that you can access the 5/16" nuts to tighten them.

https://www.fernco.com/sites/default/files/dimensional-drawings/pdf/3001-33.pdf

A fine tooth sawzall blade.. specifically a demo blade would be best. They're a tad thicker but wider also so they don't tend to wander off as you're cutting.

One thing I learned working on cars, is that sometimes its easier to remove 5 other components to replace the alternator than it is to try to work around those 5. So It may be easier to remove one or both water lines... But I also have a pro-press gun that allows me to make repairs to the water lines without soldering.. Just depends on the space between those two water lines.

Excellent, I do have a sawzall so I can just grab one of those blades for it. I'm cautiously optimistic that I can manage it without needing to cut the water lines - left and right yes for sure, the top will be the most difficult but I think there might be just enough space for it. I do have an electric extended reach ratchet so as long as I can get the ratchet head with socket in there, I won't need space to actually ratchet it which should help.

Looks like I'll have to order the fernco couplings since they aren't carried locally, but that's not a big deal. I did confirm it is 3x1.5. Thanks for the suggestion btw - I knew about fernco couplings but it just didn't occur to me that I could use four of them and replace the entire sanitary tee.

 

[Sassnak]

If you cut it out, take it to the recycler. You will get a few $ for that.

Good tip, not sure I would have thought of that!

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Looks like I'll have to order the fernco couplings since they aren't carried locally, but that's not a big deal.

If you're in Seattle you should be able to pick those up at multiple locations. Consolidated Supply in FreeLard... Keller Supply near Fishermans Terminal, Pacific Supply and Ferguson Supply on the Island of West Seattle..

Best to call and tell them you need Two 3" and Two 1.5 x 1.5 Copper x Plastic "Mission" bands + One 3 x 2 or 1.5" double san tee,... eventually you can upgrade those lines to 2" so may as well size up the san tee now.

 

[Jeff H Young]

let us know how it works out at the scrap yard my estimate less than 10 bucks.
There are several temporary patches to do epoxy or some kind of glue , caulk or silicone or even a band like a 3inch castiron x copper might fit over the hub of fitting looking at a picture the wall on the hub appears to be around 3/16ths double that is 3/8 inch plus the diametor of 3 inch copper is 3 1/8th" so that puts my estimate of 3 1/2 inches for an od equal that of castiron pipe . if you cut right where copper and cast joins its possible this idea might be an easy fix never tried it but just an idea and BTW dosent meet code to fix in such matter only way legal is to either solder it up or cut it out

 

[Sassnak]

I have some family coming today to stay with me for a couple of weeks on short notice and needed to get this working. I could not figure out how to cut that top pipe straight and didn't want to end up making it worse, so I put this together as a temporary fix. I am assuming this is not to code? but it is working very well.

I thought you all might be interested to see the reason it failed. I don't know if any of you have seen this before? It appears that when this was originally put in, the plumber couldn't fit the lower 3" pipe into the fitting for whatever reason and decided to cut a sliver out of it and bend it so it would fit. When I cut the pipe below the fitting, the rest just fell right out of the fitting. I'm shocked this lasted almost 60 years with only a minor drip towards the end.

Sorry for the blurry pic but it was hard to take a pic of as this was on the center back.

 

[Sylvan]

Clean the copper, close the split as much as possible then use BAR Solder 50 -50 to seal the slpit

 

[Sassnak]

Clean the copper, close the split as much as possible then use BAR Solder 50 -50 to seal the slpit

I already removed it and replaced it with the length of ABS.