Which is better for a heat trap a loop or ball float

[Mswlogo]

I have an electric hot water tank in the cellar. Most pipes are insulated. Where ever I could reach .

Heat is making it to the far side of the house and 2nd floor.

There are no leaks.

Hard to believe it can travel that far but it is.

Shutoff under sink it HOT. With everything static. If I shut off line to second floor it goes cold.

I see some folks don’t like the ball float thing.

Will loop work as well?

How far down and up do I need to go?
I see folks say a foot and that doesn’t feel like enough.

Ball float nipple sure would be easier / cleaner.

Also feed side is complicated. I have another preheat tank warmed by geothermal. About 100F.

Not sure I should put heat trap on entrance to either tank.

 

[John Gayewski]

Your saying your hot water line is conducting heat (however far)? How far? I find it hard to believe that there is no flow and the heat is conducted more than a couple of feet. Your saying you shut a valve and it stops, that would be indication that your stopping some flow.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Fitter30]

Have a recirculation line? Trap won't work.Insulate the first 8' with 1/2" both sides.
terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/more-heat-trap-questions.96275/

 

[Mswlogo]

Your saying your hot water line is conducting heat (however far)? How far? I find it hard to believe that there is no flow and the heat is conducted more than a couple of feet. Your saying you shut a valve and it stops, that would be indication that your stopping some flow.

That’s what I thought too.

The heat trap nipples have a “ball” in them to stop water from conducting.

There is no “flow” no leak. There is no place for water to go but the drain and its bone dry. We done use 2nd floor unless we have guests.

I just shut the valve on a pipe that leads to 2nd floor that has no flow and the shut off under sink cooled down to room temp.

I think it’s partly due to the fact I did insulate that it carries so far.

 

[Mswlogo]

Have a recirculation line? Trap won't work.Insulate the first 8' with 1/2" both sides.
terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/more-heat-trap-questions.96275/

It’s already insulated. Two sinks good 30ft horizontally away and one 15ft up are HOT under the sink by morning.

Most everything is 3/4 PEX.

I know if water was flowing.

There is a circulation pump between geothermal and first passive preheat tank. It T’s in with the feed to first tank and the drain of the tank. That’s the loop. Then output of that feed the active hot water tank.

No other recirculating pump.

 

[Mswlogo]

Ok, this gets even more interesting.

I still had the 2nd floor hot water off.

I just went and checked the first floor bath (that was hottest) and now it went cold too. No more instant hot water.

The way it’s set up is there is a 3/4 trunk line going from one end of cellar to the other.

Everything taps off that. Hot water feeds that trunk from the center.

2nd floor taps off that as well with shut offs right after where it T’s off.

In one direction the taps are

2nd floor (full bath only)
1st floor bath a good 12 feet horizontal.
Then wash room same direction same 12 feet
Then kitchen good 12 feet in the opposite direction of the 1/2 bath and wash room.

Kitchen time to get hot water always felt normal.

That half bath is as hot as having instant hot water tank, always.

2nd floor, also instant hot water (not quite as hot, but hot to the touch. Sink is also 8ft horizontal away from where it comes up !!

All I did is shut that 2nd floor shutoff where it T’s off trunk. And that stopped everything.

Trunk in the other direction has taps off for Master bathroom double sink. Then further down shower.

So I think some weird micro flow is going on when upstairs is open.

Whole cellar pipe is insulated.

BTW heat is off on 2nd floor too. But rooms are only are 60F instead of 70F.

I might try turning 2nd floor back on and geothermal loop off. And see what it does.

 

[Jeff H Young]

probebly the shower valve is allowing water mix bad cartridge or a handheld shower and or shower head is turned off with the valve handle on

 

[Mswlogo]

probebly the shower valve is allowing water mix bad cartridge or a handheld shower and or shower head is turned off with the valve handle on

Shower on second floor has not been touched in 6 months. How can it be mixing if it’s not even on?

Handle is not on. And I don’t think it would cause this symptom even hot and cold were connected to each other in 2nd floor bath (with system idle). If system was being used, yeah some weird back forth would happen.

Cold side is always cold. It’s not heat getting into the cold side.

It’s the hot, getting hot when nothing is running.

The only thing that is active, overnight, is that circulating pump between geothermal and the preheat tank. Which is pretty isolated but it is connected.

Everything else is static (overnight). I’m checking it, in the morning after nothing touched for ~8 hrs.

 

[Jeff H Young]

If the pipes are hot its circulating through the valve internally connecting the hot and cold

 

[Jeff H Young]

pipes cant get hot on other side of house without water movement

 

[Mswlogo]

probebly the shower valve is allowing water mix bad cartridge or a handheld shower and or shower head is turned off with the valve handle on

Reconsidering this idea.

It’s definitely not on or hand held turned off with faucet on.

But I can’t rule out a bad cartridge. Even though it’s all new.

It is a single handle Kohler.

What got me thinking is, this shower was “plumbed” backwards. I fixed it by reversing lines. Googling around, cartridge housing could be installed backwards causing hot cold reversed. If it’s really backwards and I compensated by reversing lines could that cause bypass leakage?

I shut the cold off going to 2nd floor. If it’s a bypass leak that should stop it as well as turning off hot did.

What baffles me also is, if this is a bypass leak in upstairs shower why does the faucet downstairs also get hot at the shutoff when this is happens.

 

[Mswlogo]

I think I found the culprit(s).

It’s these Kohler touchless faucets. I have 4 of them !!

When you put them on full cold or hot no cross leak.

Leave it on warm position and they are direct hot to cold connection WHEN OFF.

Is that normal for something like this?

I tested one by removing cold side. Turned on the hot water shutoff and it gushed out the cold side from faucet only in the warm position.

Makes some sense.

So anytime someone uses a toilet or does a cold water wash, hot water is flowing backwards through all the pipes.

My wife insisted laundry was getting hot water even though she set it to cold. I triple checked it.

Do they make screw on check valves I can add between shutoff and hose to faucet?

 

[Mswlogo]

I found the same problem discussed on this site and others.

With link to the screw on check valves

https://sloanrepair.com/products/in-line-check-valve-pair?_pos=2&_sid=9cdd9fe66&_ss=r

Why are these things sold without check valves? They should be illegal.

How much hot water is being wasted?

It’s often associated with these touchless faucets.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Yep thats what I was talking about. There oughta be a law ? LOL contact kohler theyll give you part to fix free assuming you are the owner.
I cant tell you how much hot water is used you gotta be kidding. you arent using water its only heat you are using

 

[Mswlogo]

Yep thats what I was talking about. There oughta be a law ? LOL contact kohler theyll give you part to fix free assuming you are the owner.
I cant tell you how much hot water is used you gotta be kidding. you arent using water its only heat you are using

Right. It’s heat I’m losing.

Illegal, I mean as in it should be against code.

Yeah, Kohler might send part after 4 hrs on the phone after finding someone that speaks English with an IQ above a door mat that understands.

I saved myself the headache and ordered 8 check valves.

I put all the faucets on extreme hot or cold (no mix) until they arrive.

Although it’s a small sample we had more usage than average today. But it shows less than half. So far it looks like it might be on the order of $40 /month

Every washing and every flush was using ~50% hot water.

Running the hose washing the car.

I had 4 potentially bypassing all in parallel.

I’ll check the whole house for cross leaks after I put these checkvalves in.

Sunday Monday was when I was shutting 2nd floor off.

 

[Mswlogo]

One more update on this.

My hot water bill went from $60/mo to $16/mo by putting in the check valves.

 

[Fitter30]

At least the heat from the piping went into the house.

 

[Mswlogo]

At least the heat from the piping went into the house.

Yeah, it really helped in the summer.