Urgent Help Needed: Tankless Water Heater Causing Rapid Buildup – Is Fleck the Safer Choice?

[Kevin12345]

Hi,



We have a property with two manufactured houses. One house came with an old tank-style water heater already installed. The other house didn’t have a water heater, so about nine months ago, we installed a new tankless water heater along with new PEX piping.



The house with the old tank water heater hasn’t had any issues so far. However, the house with the new tankless water heater has been producing a significant amount of white buildup, which keeps clogging the faucets. I cleaned the buildup with chemicals just a month ago, but I’ve already noticed a considerable amount forming again. I researched the issue and found that tankless water heaters—especially models that can’t be set below 120°F—tend to cause more mineral buildup than traditional tank water heaters.



When I installed the tankless water heater, I also added a Scale-RX filter. Based on my experience, it hasn’t been effective, or the water might be too hard for it to work properly.



I reviewed the water report, which showed iron levels between 300 ppm and 1500 ppm—an extremely high range. However, I believe this might be a typo. It’s likely 1500 parts per billion (ppb) instead of parts per million (ppm), making the actual iron level between 3 ppm and 15 ppm. While still high, it’s not as excessive as initially reported.



I spoke with a company that sells water softeners, and they mentioned that a regular water softener should work fine without an iron filter.



I’m now considering installing a water softener without an iron filter. In my research, I found that many people use either Fleck or Aquasure systems. However, I came across some negative reviews about Aquasure, mentioning bead leakage that caused significant damage to connected equipment and pipes. I haven’t seen similar reviews for Fleck.



Is this because Fleck offers better quality than Aquasure? Could you explain what typically causes bead leakage in Aquasure water softeners and if there are ways to prevent it?

By the way, there isn’t enough space to install a large water softener.
If there’s a reliable compact version available, please let me know.
If not, I’ll need to find a way to install either the Aquasure or Fleck system.

I would appreciate any advice you can provide.



Thank you!

 

[Reach4]

reviewed the water report, which showed iron levels between 300 ppm and 1500 ppm—an extremely high range. However, I believe this might be a typo. It’s likely 1500 parts per billion (ppb) instead of parts per million (ppm), making the actual iron level between 3 ppm and 15 ppm. While still high, it’s not as excessive as initially reported.



I spoke with a company that sells water softeners, and they mentioned that a regular water softener should work fine without an iron filter.

3 ppm iron is a lot for a softener to handle. It would need some extra treatment for the softener periodically. It may be that layering in Iron Out powder with the resin would do it, some periodic treatments.

Your photo seems odd/suspicious. Did you take a photo, or is that some photo you got elsewhere? If you had hardness materials together with iron, I would not expect precipitate to be segregated into white and brown chips. Maybe the white chips are your precipitate, and the brown is unrelated to the purpose of the photo.

The one tankless manual I happened to be looking at recently said not for use with hardness over I think about 11 grains. Earlier I saw one that called for no more than 7.

Measuring hardness is easy and accurate with the Hach 5-B hardness test. Iron is not so easy to measure at home.

I reviewed the water report, which showed iron levels between 300 ppm and 1500 ppm—an extremely high range. However, I believe this might be a typo. It’s likely 1500 parts per billion (ppb) instead of parts per million (ppm), making the actual iron level between 3 ppm and 15 ppm. While still high, it’s not as excessive as initially reported.

It just struck me... this is probably city or water company water. In that case, the iron number would not be relevant. It would be at their water treatment plant, and in the presence of chlorine or chloromine, the iron would precipitate out and settle in the pipes, and is the main thing that gets flushed out during "hydrant flushing".

EDIT: after further looking I see you posted before, and I gave much the same response. You did not understand, or did not believe? https://terrylove.com/forums/index....n-filter-for-high-iron-and-hard-water.111925/

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Breplum]

I don't personally know the field of scale problems but though Scale RX clearly isn't working. How about specific treatment for scale in tankless like Navien offers https://www.navieninc.com/series/peakflow or similar big units by Falsken.

 

[Reach4]

Navien PeakFlow sounds similar to some things that I think are a scam, but Navien is a reputable name.

I wonder how that operates. I hope it is not "TAC", or maybe I have to reconsider my distrust of TAC.

 

[Kevin12345]

3 ppm iron is a lot for a softener to handle. It would need some extra treatment for the softener periodically. It may be that layering in Iron Out powder with the resin would do it, some periodic treatments.

Your photo seems odd/suspicious. Did you take a photo, or is that some photo you got elsewhere? If you had hardness materials together with iron, I would not expect precipitate to be segregated into white and brown chips. Maybe the white chips are your precipitate, and the brown is unrelated to the purpose of the photo.

The one tankless manual I happened to be looking at recently said not for use with hardness over I think about 11 grains. Earlier I saw one that called for no more than 7.

Measuring hardness is easy and accurate with the Hach 5-B hardness test. Iron is not so easy to measure at home.


It just struck me... this is probably city or water company water. In that case, the iron number would not be relevant. It would be at their water treatment plant, and in the presence of chlorine or chloromine, the iron would precipitate out and settle in the pipes, and is the main thing that gets flushed out during "hydrant flushing".

EDIT: after further looking I see you posted before, and I gave much the same response. You did not understand, or did not believe? https://terrylove.com/forums/index....n-filter-for-high-iron-and-hard-water.111925/

Thank you for the detailed answer. I took a picture. When I removed the PEX pipe, many of those white particles came out. To clarify, the dark brown color is old plywood, not a mineral deposit.


I attached another picture I took after removing the shower faucet.
I believe I could easily accumulate the same amount within a month.


Today, I tested the water using my pool water test kit, which provided an accurate hardness reading:

• Calcium Hardness: 480 to 500 ppm (around 29 grains)

• TDS: 567 ppm (I measured TDS and pH with a device I got from Temu, but I’m not sure how accurate it is. I have a better one that I’ll use next time.)

• pH: 7.9 to 8.3



Please let me know what would you do if you were me.
I just don't want to spend another $$$.

Thank you

 

[Reach4]

I attached another picture I took after removing the shower faucet.

That doesn't look like hardness deposits to me. Maybe I am wrong.

Hardness deposits will dissolve in an acid such as 5% vinegar. Hardness deposits will not burn, where organic debris will burn in a flame.

And I am a skeptic of https://americanvalve.com/products/scalerx-limescale-prevention-systems/ Is IPAMO testing trustworthy in evaluating efficacy? https://www.gsa.gov/system/files/Applied_Research/GSAGPGNCWTSaltLakeFinal.pdf seems to say there may be some validity.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Cat...+Treatment+System+Frank+E.+Moss+US+Courthouse looks for things referencing that study.

 

[Bannerman]

Heating water will cause hardness minerals to precipitate out from the water, and collect on the hottest surfaces.

A tankless water heater is designed to supply a large amount of heat to moving water within narrow water passages within the unit's heat exchanger, to cause the temperature of the water to almost instantaneously increase by often 70 or more degrees before exiting.

Many tankless units have a gas input up to 199,000 btus, so the hardness minerals in the water within the narrow passages will rapidly accumulate on the passage walls, where they will reduce heat transfer, and may block each passage completely.

Although a tank type gas WH will typically have a gas input rating of 36,000 BTUs, because the burner is usually located directly below the water storage tank, minerals will accumulate mainly on the bottom of the tank and also on the surface of the vent pipe located through the center of the tank. This accumulation will increase fuel consumption due to the minerals acting as an insulator, thereby forcing the burner to operate significantly longer to heat the water to the desired temperature. See images of the inside of gas heaters below.

In an electric tank type WH, minerals will accumulate on the electric elements, thereby reducing the ability to transfer heat to the water, increasing electricity consumption and causing the element to eventually burn out and require replacement.

A quote from Ditttohead: "the only reasonable technology that truly works is traditional softening. Other technologies may lessen the scale buildup, but the only technology that we have seen work almost 100% of the time is a true softener." (Linked thread)

 

[Kevin12345]

That doesn't look like hardness deposits to me. Maybe I am wrong.

Hardness deposits will dissolve in an acid such as 5% vinegar. Hardness deposits will not burn, where organic debris will burn in a flame.

And I am a skeptic of https://americanvalve.com/products/scalerx-limescale-prevention-systems/ Is IPAMO testing trustworthy in evaluating efficacy? https://www.gsa.gov/system/files/Applied_Research/GSAGPGNCWTSaltLakeFinal.pdf seems to say there may be some validity.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Cat...+Treatment+System+Frank+E.+Moss+US+Courthouse looks for things referencing that study.

Thank you for all your replies.

Hi, I’ve attached more pictures of the kitchen faucet.

Could you please recommend which type and size of filter we should use?

Also, how often do we need to change the salt, and how much should we expect to spend on salt each year?

Thank you.

 

[Reach4]

I would put the filter after the softener.

I am searching around. It seems to me that Pentek Omnifilter heavy duty models use standard size cartridges. Please search around. These would be the same size as the Pentek Big Blue filters.

Some of the housings have a bypass valve, which I think is a big deal.

OMNIFilter 10" Clear Heavy-Duty Whole House Water Filter System

This OMNIFilter heavy-duty, whole house water filtration system is designed to meat the high flow needs and large capacity of larger homes with 1-inch incoming water lines. It’s ideal for both well water and city water applications, and the system easily attaches to any 1-inch incoming water...

www.menards.com

https://manuals.plus/pentair/whh-10-vih-sg-1-water-filtration-system-manual

OMNIFILTER U30 Filtration System

The U30 Whole House Filtration System improves the water everywhere in your home by reducing sediment and chlorine taste & odor.

www.pentair.com

You do some searching to see what you think. The mounting for U30 is by a mount that holds the pipes.

4.5x10 or 2.5x20 should be a good size, and will be less heavy than my 4.5x20.

 

[Kevin12345]

I checked the water report again (https://sheepcreekwater.com/water-quality-report). I think it is a typo: the iron level is probably 300 ppb, not 300 ppm. That means the average iron level is 0.3 ppm, not 3 ppm. Only the 2023 report shows a higher level—1,500 ppb (1.5 ppm), which isn’t too high. Therefore, I believe our iron level is within the normal range.

 

[Reach4]

I checked the water report again (https://sheepcreekwater.com/water-quality-report). I think it is a typo: the iron level is probably 300 ppb, not 300 ppm. That means the average iron level is 0.3 ppm, not 3 ppm. Only the 2023 report shows a higher level—1,500 ppb (1.5 ppm), which isn’t too high. Therefore, I believe our iron level is within the normal range.

0.3 ppm is on the edge of the border between problem and not problem. But by the time it gets to your house, almost no iron, no problem.

 

[Kevin12345]

I would put the filter after the softener.

I am searching around. It seems to me that Pentek Omnifilter heavy duty models use standard size cartridges. Please search around. These would be the same size as the Pentek Big Blue filters.

Some of the housings have a bypass valve, which I think is a big deal.

OMNIFilter 10" Clear Heavy-Duty Whole House Water Filter System

This OMNIFilter heavy-duty, whole house water filtration system is designed to meat the high flow needs and large capacity of larger homes with 1-inch incoming water lines. It’s ideal for both well water and city water applications, and the system easily attaches to any 1-inch incoming water...

www.menards.com

https://manuals.plus/pentair/whh-10-vih-sg-1-water-filtration-system-manual

OMNIFILTER U30 Filtration System

The U30 Whole House Filtration System improves the water everywhere in your home by reducing sediment and chlorine taste & odor.

www.pentair.com

You do some searching to see what you think. The mounting for U30 is by a mount that holds the pipes.

4.5x10 or 2.5x20 should be a good size, and will be less heavy than my 4.5x20.

Based on our water test results (Calcium Hardness: 480–500 ppm, around 29 grains, TDS: 567 ppm, and pH: 7.9–8.3), could you recommend an appropriately sized water softener and brand? I’m considering Aquasure, but I’ve seen several negative reviews about leaking resin beads damaging connected devices. Would installing an OMNI filter protect these devices in case of a leak?

Also, do you think Fleck is better quality than Aquasure?
It’s our first time installing a water softener. Could you let me know how often we need to replace the salt, and roughly how much we can expect to spend on salt each year? Are there other filters or systems that don’t require frequent salt or filter replacements?

Thank you.

 

[Reach4]

filter after the softener would catch resin particles.

How many people?

I know Fleck.

 

[Kevin12345]

filter after the softener would catch resin particles.

How many people?

I know Fleck.

it is for rental unit 2bd 1bath, around 1000-1200sf ft. I think there are 2 adults and 3 or 4 children.

 

[Reach4]

At 29 grains and the hardness set to 34 for high-hardness compensation, 240 gallons per day, expect to regen about every 5 or 6 days wit 2 cuft of resin in a 12x52 inch tank.. If you use 15 or 16 lbs of salt for each regeneration, you can predict the salt usage.
A 13" x 54" tank would hold 2.50 cu. ft. of resin, and would regen with 19 to 20 pounds of salt about every 7 days and would offer a slight salt saving.

 

[Kevin12345]

Thank you for your help.. In the case, we should use around 300lb salt per month which is around $50 per month which is a lot...

Can you recommend other softener or filter which doesn't cost that much?
I found Rinnai ScaleCutter.
Do you know if it works.

Thank you.