Required to replace water heater, Florida Homeowners Insurance Companies are getting out of hand.

[WorthFlorida]

I do not know how the insurance industry is around the country but in Florida, dozens of companies have or will be leaving the state. Most has to do with fraudulent roof claims due to so call storms. The state passed recently some statues but the insurance industry said that it is not enough. Last year I switched to this company Frontline and they inspected under the cabinets for all the sinks, water heaters, washing machines, etc. The current water heater is an A O Smith, 15 years old, electric and no hard water issues. The real joke is the water heater is in the garage and any leak will just run down the driveway. I haven't received my renewal notice yet but I'm expecting a 50% increase.

Hi George,
I hope this email finds you well. I am writing with regard to a notification we received from Frontline Insurance advising that your water heater will exceed eligibility guidelines at the expiration of your policy on 11/18/2022.

In order for a renewal to be issued, we will need to receive proof that the water heater has been replaced. All we need as proof is a copy of the label on the water heater.

Please note that all of our carriers have the same underwriting restriction, therefore we request that you comply with this request so that we can either obtain a renewal or find you alternative coverage for your next renewal term starting 11/18/2022.

If you have any questions, please let us know. We will be happy to assist you. Thank you for your loyalty to The Thompson Agency. Stay safe and most importantly stay well!!

 

[Cliffyk]

Not to cast aspersions against your insurance agency¹, nonetheless I would request from them a copy of the insurer's notification and the insurer's water heater policy requirements--"to assure your full compliance with their needs"...


--------------------------
¹- You do know what 20,000 insurance agents at the bottom of the ocean would be called?

...A good start.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Breplum]

I'm sure the agents have nothing to do with this...but how inane.
In a garage with a concrete floor it is utter stupidity !!!!
Our homeowner's ins. doubled two years ago and then went up again this renewal.
2019 @ $1,400.
2021 $3,000.
Now, 2022 $3,915.

 

[Cliffyk]

Ours also doubled this year.

Keep in mind that the agent's commission is a pecentage of the premium cost--so, higher premium = higher commission...

 

[Jeff H Young]

My relatives house was hit by a hurricane few years maybe 3 in Miami well they have had several water damage claims, but this one was caused by roof leaking it was original clay tile from 1970 or 71 so 50 years old. They weren't happy with the insurance company not sure if it was a denial or just not enough money went to a public adjuster got 50 grand it was mainly the roof and they wanted an entire roof free and got it. I don't know how it works should a roof last more than 50 years? evidently so she had some broken tiles not a lot , I figured they would say if the tiles aren't broken then it didn't get storm damage perhaps it was never built good back of house wasn't viewable put a close replacement in the back and replace a few dozen tiles?
I think Florida going to make you put a roof on or pay someone off to certify its still good if its 15 years old in Florida, you guys have tons of claims and its higher insurance rates than California I think.
my house was built in 02 3rd water heater was installed in 2017 that's 15 years So you've had a good run, George.

 

[Fitter30]

Farmers insurance in missouri few years ago wanted me to replace a 15 year old metal roof to keep the policy. They wanted any roof over 10 years to be replaced. Changed company. Actuaries drive the insurance companied who calculates risks.

 

[Cliffyk]

This filing of a homeowner's insurance claims for old or just plain worn out components (be it water heater or roof) is something I have watched develop, increase, and even be tacitly encouraged by insurers (they like the increased premiums that have accompanied the practice.

It would never occur to me to file a claim because my 50 y.o. roof developed a leak. We had our 21 y.o. roof replaced in Jan of 2000--one of the questions the roofer asked was whether we had filed an insurance claim.

"For what? , says I, "it just wore out. I knew it would when we bought the house in 2000."

Similarly, when the 12 y.o. water heater failed in June 2019 I never considered it to be the fiscal responsibility of my homeowner's insurer.

My point is that customer's have come to expect HO insurance to hold their hand through every even remotely "homeowner" related loss;and insurers have said "Fine, but we will be paid for it..."

 

[WorthFlorida]

I'm sure the agents have nothing to do with this...but how inane.
In a garage with a concrete floor it is utter stupidity !!!!
Our homeowner's ins. doubled two years ago and then went up again this renewal.
2019 @ $1,400.
2021 $3,000.
Now, 2022 $3,915.

When insurance pays off. This was directly in front of my home. It appears that the firemen were in no rush. Everyone escaped from the home. It damaged the town home next to it and the fireman damaged the third unit.

Last year my cost for insurance was around $1700 for $350,000 dwelling coverage. 2% deductible for hurricane coverage. Hurricane damage use different deductibles in Florida. I'm guessing it'll be around $2,500-$3,000 this year. South Florida (Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties) the cost is more than double than Central Florida.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Cliffy, they did have legitimate damage they had screen around pool pretty much destroyed some carpet drywall etc. It would occur to me to mention all damage that occurred during the Event . I don't know that they lied or suspect they did anything wrong but they did go to a public adjuster The 50 year old roof to me is an issue but I'm no expert from what I've heard the paper underneath disintegrates with age but My info on felt paper could be wrong . If it wasn't legit I expect the insurance company to challenge. Everyone seems to think the companies have money (relative never said anything like that)

We have 10 percent deductible on earthquake insurance its state issued I think. that's 10 percent of the insured value so 1/2 million (a very inexpensive home the first 50k is out of pocket I don't know anyone that has it. I guess if you own it outright it might be smart to have. if you have zero equity you can walk away or get a gov bailout I suppose.
People say don't build in fire or earthquake country but other type stuff happens in other places

 

[Sylvan]

I had A insurance company for 14 years and some GC used my fire sprinkler suppression number to file a job without my knowledge and to make it even worse someone forged my signature on the permit.

The plastic piping froze ( I never used plastic) and caused several thousand dollars in damages . Scottsdale ins dropped me like a hot potato.

After calling my lawyer he took it to the federal court to make sure I was covered . we won both law suits and Scottsdale refunded 3 years of my premiums BUT I was not covered for any work in the last three years. I took the money and crossed my fingers no suit would happen

I testified on a case 3 months ago where some guy who never worked a day in his life was scalded on his leg and feet and I was in court testifying how it could have happened (stacking) and the jury gave this "victim" 1.8 million dollars

This is why insurance companies are dropping people and raising their premiums

My insurance for both of my companies average $30,000 a month

The fire suppression is the most expensive.

We completed a job on the 86th floor of the Empire state building and I was very concerned about a piping failure on the 6" stand pipe and 4" sprinkler branches so I added a huge rider to cover myself

If there is a cap on how much a jury can award then the cost of insurance would be lower

As an expert witness I am now charging $5,000 a day and already have 7 cases pending including one that happened 5+ years ago.

Bronx radiator explosion kills two baby girls in building used as homeless shelter

Two napping sisters died from burns Wednesday when a valve blew off a radiator in their Bronx apartment and filled their bedroom with scalding steam, officials said. “It’s not fair,&#82…

www.nydailynews.com

 

[Jeff H Young]

I had A insurance company for 14 years and some GC used my fire sprinkler suppression number to file a job without my knowledge and to make it even worse someone forged my signature on the permit.

The plastic piping froze ( I never used plastic) and caused several thousand dollars in damages . Scottsdale ins dropped me like a hot potato.

After calling my lawyer he took it to the federal court to make sure I was covered . we won both law suits and Scottsdale refunded 3 years of my premiums BUT I was not covered for any work in the last three years. I took the money and crossed my fingers no suit would happen

I testified on a case 3 months ago where some guy who never worked a day in his life was scalded on his leg and feet and I was in court testifying how it could have happened (stacking) and the jury gave this "victim" 1.8 million dollars

This is why insurance companies are dropping people and raising their premiums

My insurance for both of my companies average $30,000 a month

The fire suppression is the most expensive.

We completed a job on the 86th floor of the Empire state building and I was very concerned about a piping failure on the 6" stand pipe and 4" sprinkler branches so I added a huge rider to cover myself

If there is a cap on how much a jury can award then the cost of insurance would be lower

As an expert witness I am now charging $5,000 a day and already have 7 cases pending including one that happened 5+ years ago.

Bronx radiator explosion kills two baby girls in building used as homeless shelter

Two napping sisters died from burns Wednesday when a valve blew off a radiator in their Bronx apartment and filled their bedroom with scalding steam, officials said. “It’s not fair,&#82…

www.nydailynews.com

Sounds good 1000 a day isn't bad when your raking it in probably base it on gross sales

 

[Jadnashua]

There's a reason most WH have something like a 6-year warranty. Some are a bit longer, but not usually by much. While a WH can last lots longer (and often an electric one will beat a gas fired one), after the warranty, you're on borrowed time, so insurance companies are trying to minimize their liabilities. It's not uncommon for places like condo associations to require their replacement at something like 7-years, and it's written into their by-laws.

 

[Sylvan]

Sounds good 1000 a day isn't bad when your raking it in probably base it on gross sales

Jeff America has victims being imported from third world countries who do not know "hot water causes burns" as proven by the Mc Donald coffee case

When a single parent needs money the easiest way is to have their children scalded and call a lawyer and then the games begin.

The building owner is sued, the installing contractor and everyone in a 5 mile area are mentioned in the class action suit.

The weakest link is the one who is held accountable.

When I was first sued for a job I was not even working on or was not even in the same borough I saw a golden opportunity to jump on the litigation bandwagon.

Being an expert I offer my "opinion" which is like a belly button as everyone has one

I was called last month to check the water temperature of a bath tub and found it to be 162.2 deg. F


I knew this is a winner and told the lawyer I wanted $5,000 retainer fee to write a deposition which he agreed to

Below is the affidavit I supplied and I used it in several cases with great success

 

[Sylvan]

The model plumbing codes states the maximum hot water temperature for a shower or bathtub is 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

The plumbing industry standards committees for temperature actuated mixing valves and shower valves and it is generally agreed that 120 degrees is the maximum, safe hot water temperature.

The hot water system design standards committees where the participants had agreed that maximum domestic hot water temperature from plumbing fixtures used for bathing and washing purposes should be 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

There were a few exceptions for bidets, sitz baths and whirlpool tubs that had temperatures 110 degrees Fahrenheit for the recommended maximum temperatures to prevent scalding.

It also should be noted that some other uses like commercial dishwashers and laundries may need temperatures higher than 160 degrees Fahrenheit. in lieu of chemicals for sterilization

It’s generally agreed that 120 degrees Fahrenheit is the maximum safe hot water temperature that should be delivered from a fixture. Therefore hot water above 120 degrees Fahrenheit can be considered hazardous. Model codes address this in various code sections.

The 2009 edition of the International Plumbing Code has the following language:

2009 IPC Section 102.2 — Existing installations. Plumbing systems lawfully in existence at the time of the adoption of this code shall be permitted to have their use and maintenance continued if the use, maintenance or repair is in accordance with the original design and no hazard to life, health or property is created by such plumbing system.

2009 IPC Section 102.4 — Additions, alterations or repairs. Additions, alterations, renovations or repairs to any plumbing system shall conform to that required for a new plumbing system without requiring the existing plumbing system to comply with all the requirements of this code. Additions, alterations or repairs shall not cause an existing system to become unsafe, insanitary or overloaded. Minor additions, alterations, renovations and repairs to existing plumbing systems shall meet the provisions for new construction, unless such work is done in the same manner and arrangement as was in the existing system, is not hazardous and is approved.

2009 IPC Section 424.3 — Individual shower valves. Individual shower and tub-shower combination valves shall be balanced-pressure, thermostatic or combination balanced-pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or ASME A112.18.1/CSA B125.1 and shall be installed at the point of use.

Shower and tub-shower combination valves required by this section shall be equipped with a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120°F (49°C), which shall be field adjusted in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. In-line thermostatic valves shall not be utilized for compliance with this section.

2009 IPC Section 424.5 — Bathtub and whirlpool bathtub valves. The hot water supplied to bathtubs and whirlpool bathtubs shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 120°F (49°C) by a water-temperature limiting device that conforms to ASSE 1070 or CSA B125.3, except where such protection is otherwise provided by a combination tub/shower valve in accordance with Section 424.3.

2009 IPC Section 424.7 — Temperature-actuated, flow reduction valves for individual fixture fittings. Temperature-actuated, flow reduction devices, where installed for individual fixture fittings, shall conform to ASSE 1062. Such valves shall not be used alone as a substitute for the balanced pressure, thermostatic or combination shower valves required in Section 424.3.

The 2009 edition of the Uniform Plumbing Code Has the following Language:

2009 UPC Section 101.4.1.2 — Maintenance. The plumbing and drainage system of any premises under the Authority Having Jurisdiction shall be maintained in a sanitary and safe operating condition by the owner or the owner’s agent.

2009 UPC Section

414.5 Limitation of Hot Water in Bathtubs and Whirlpool Bathtubs. The maximum hot water temperature discharging from the bathtub and whirlpool bathtub filler shall be limited to 120ºF (49ºC) by a device that conforms to ASSE 1070 or CSA B125.3. The water heater thermostat shall not be considered a control for meeting this provision.

418.0 Shower and Tub-Shower Combination Control Valves.

Showers and tub-shower combinations in buildings shall be provided with individual control valves of the pressure balance, thermostatic, or combination pressure balance/thermostatic mixing valve type that provide scald and thermal shock protection. These valves shall conform to ASSE 1016 or ASME A112.18.1/CSA B125.1

These codes generally agree if there is a hazardous condition or a condition that is unsafe or a nuisance to life, health and property it should be corrected. It is also generally agreed that water above 120 degrees Fahrenheit at fixtures for bathing and washing with a few exceptions for lower temperatures can be considered dangerous and proper precautions should be taken to prevent the hot water from being a scalding hazard by using the proper safety devices.

 

[wwhitney]

as proven by the Mc Donald coffee case

Umm, the McDonald's coffee case was about their policy of storing and serving coffee at 180F - 190F. Talk about a scalding hazard! Before the lawsuit, they had more than 700 claims for scalding in the previous 10 years. So it was a known problem that McDonald's willfully ignored.

The McDonald's Coffee Cup Case: Separating McFacts From McFiction - FindLaw

A look at the infamous McDonald's hot coffee case, theories of liability, and more. Learn about this and more at FindLaw's Product Liability section.

www.findlaw.com

Cheers, Wayne

 

[WorthFlorida]

My relatives house was hit by a hurricane few years maybe 3 in Miami well they have had several water damage claims, but this one was caused by roof leaking it was original clay tile from 1970 or 71 so 50 years old. They weren't happy with the insurance company not sure if it was a denial or just not enough money went to a public adjuster got 50 grand it was mainly the roof and they wanted an entire roof free and got it. I don't know how it works should a roof last more than 50 years? evidently so she had some broken tiles not a lot , I figured they would say if the tiles aren't broken then it didn't get storm damage perhaps it was never built good back of house wasn't viewable put a close replacement in the back and replace a few dozen tiles?
I think Florida going to make you put a roof on or pay someone off to certify its still good if its 15 years old in Florida, you guys have tons of claims and its higher insurance rates than California I think.
my house was built in 02 3rd water heater was installed in 2017 that's 15 years So you've had a good run, George.

BTW, just today I replaced the water heater. As I drained the old one there was only sediment coming out but with a bits of lime. No bad at all and being electric it just sits at the bottom.

My son's home built 2007, (just a block from me and the same builder and same age home), needs a new roof to get insurance with a new company, it must be replaced. His current company was going to raise it out of site. He has taken out a loan for $20,000. The roofer is trying to get insurance coverage and he was denied once from a so call storm. Everyday in my neighborhood someone is getting a new roof. We had a small hail storm a few months ago and all roofers are doing the insurance thing. It is why insurance company's are leaving town and those that are staying are raising rates. My roof was replaced after Hurricane IRMA in 2017, a ten year old three tab roof. I didn't like is when I bought the home but with the hurricane deductible, it still cost me over $6,000 for a $14,000 replacement 30 year roof

I'm sure the agents have nothing to do with this...but how inane.
In a garage with a concrete floor it is utter stupidity !!!!
Our homeowner's ins. doubled two years ago and then went up again this renewal.
2019 @ $1,400.
2021 $3,000.
Now, 2022 $3,915.

My homeowners insurance rate increase by $480 to $2228 for $388,000 dwelling coverage. A 2 story 2375 sqft home. No bad all things considered. It does include $1791 discount for wind lost. I assume it is the age of the roof, therefore, each year as the roof ages, the discount decreases. Even $96 for a monitored burglar alarm system.

 

[Sylvan]

Umm, the McDonald's coffee case was about their policy of storing and serving coffee at 180F - 190F. Talk about a scalding hazard! Before the lawsuit, they had more than 700 claims for scalding in the previous 10 years. So it was a known problem that McDonald's willfully ignored.

The McDonald's Coffee Cup Case: Separating McFacts From McFiction - FindLaw

A look at the infamous McDonald's hot coffee case, theories of liability, and more. Learn about this and more at FindLaw's Product Liability section.

www.findlaw.com

Cheers, Wayne

NYC a thief fell though a sky light painted black

This savage was on a roof at night fell though the skylight and sued and won 4.7 million

Reason being the skylight should not have been painted

I happen to like half and half in my coffee so it the coffee is lukewarm and then milk is added it would be cold .

Have you ever heard of anyone saying "Give me a cup of coffee or soup at room temperature"

The old hag spilled the coffee in her lap in a car WHY NOT SUE the car manufacturer also for a bad cup holder ??

The McDonald case is why I became an expert witness as it is a gold mine helping morons make a fortune

 

[Sylvan]

". They weren't happy with the insurance company not sure if it was a denial or just not enough money went to a public adjuster got 50 grand it was mainly the roof and they wanted an entire roof free and got it. I don't know how it works should a roof last more than 50 years?"

Prior to being a plumber I worked as a roofer as my grand father started a roofing company in 1913 and my father had his own roofing company and I worked for a commercial roofing company during the summer months when I was home during summer vacations from public school.

The roofs normally had a 30 year warrantee if the were used for weather protection and not a Promenade type as these roofs had a 10 year warrantee

Built-up commercial coal tar pitch roofing4 ply felt and the hot tar applied with a mop.

Today they have 15 year and 20 year roofs and very few slate roofing in NYC

One roof I did was given a 100 year guarantee back in 1972 when I used copper coated sheet lead and all the seams were lead burned (soldered ) including the flashing and counter flashing . Stainless steel roof drains ..Custom order

 

[WorthFlorida]

I replaced the water heater. I had a 15 year old AO SMITH Proline electric 55 gallon. When emptying the tank maybe a cup or two of sediment came out but it was enough to plug up the drain so I removed. it. My pressure will go to 125 PSI at night. During the day 70-72 PSI. With the expansion tank, only 2.1 gallons, it max's out at 90.