Offsetting 1.5" galvanized on a 22.5 degree angle? How? Possible?

[Sylvan]

You and HJ think too much of yourselves. Master plumber my ass.

I have noticed over the past 50 years the most incompetent non formally educated person will call themselves a "plumber"

Decent localities actually fine and in extreme cases jail these frauds as saying they are a plumber without the benefit of a master license is illegal

Licensing laws protect the consumer from fraudulent stumblebums who have no idea that plumbing is 60% theory and 40% hands on experience

One without the other is like going to a doctor who never had a license or a non licensed driver who can't read

Last week end I sent my employees to classes on Saturday and Sunday (I paid them over time to attend) to be qualified to work on natural gas piping

The manager of my company who is in America 5 years and is working for me for 3 years 2 months ago took and passed a gas certification course that cost over $2,500

His salary is $5,000 a week only because he does have amazing mechanical ability and is willing to learn he is also taking courses and is now handling all my new construction jobs as well as hiring people with a journeyman's card to work in jobbing

Plumbing is complicated and an unending education
The picture is what one of my employees installed This separates the handymen from a well trained journeyman

 

[Sylvan]

OP here:
My jurisdiction does not recognize Air Admittance Valves (AAV's), and won't recognize them.
And this is an inappropriate place for one for two reasons: it can't be serviced because of the poor clearance, and
because of the heat of being right below a roof deck. When the rubber on the AAV eventually wears out and gets brittle,
there would be no way to change it.

I'd use a Solar Roof Jack https://solarroofjack.com/ but none of the pipes are plastic, and it seems inelegant to have pipe
hidden under a solar panel, when the attic route is just an angle away....

Most civilized areas will not allow for the use of cheater vents . Properly venting a fixture or waste or soil line can be challenging

We completed a large alterion on the 86 floor of the Empire state building sprinkler / stand piping and bathrooms .

Working in a building built in 1931 on existing systems is sometimes difficult but it can be accomplished without the use of AAVs or blind vents

 

[Sponsor]

 

[James Henry]

I have noticed over the past 50 years the most incompetent non formally educated person will call themselves a "plumber"

Decent localities actually fine and in extreme cases jail these frauds as saying they are a plumber without the benefit of a master license is illegal

Licensing laws protect the consumer from fraudulent stumblebums who have no idea that plumbing is 60% theory and 40% hands on experience

One without the other is like going to a doctor who never had a license or a non licensed driver who can't read

Last week end I sent my employees to classes on Saturday and Sunday (I paid them over time to attend) to be qualified to work on natural gas piping

The manager of my company who is in America 5 years and is working for me for 3 years 2 months ago took and passed a gas certification course that cost over $2,500

His salary is $5,000 a week only because he does have amazing mechanical ability and is willing to learn he is also taking courses and is now handling all my new construction jobs as well as hiring people with a journeyman's card to work in jobbing

Plumbing is complicated and an unending education
The picture is what one of my employees installed This separates the handymen from a well trained journeyman

I'm not impressed.

 

[Terry]

There are places now where the AAV is becoming a common way to vent, especially for kitchens.
Pretty handy for adding a bathroom in a lower floor when access up to the roof is tough to get.
You need at least one vent through the roof for the AAV to work properly. I prefer a roof vent, but it's not always going to happen.

I saw above someone mentioning swinging the angle by using two 90's. That is often how an odd angle is done with a vent.

 

[James Henry]

I went through a 5 year apprenticeship through local 469 plumbers and pipefitters in hjs home town Phoenix I have a plumbing license in two states. I am backflow certified. Gas certified and medgas certified. But you guys just wanna make yourselves look good by insulting other people who are just trying help.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

There seems to be a lot of overthinking in this thread. The best installation would be to install a cleanout in an accessible location from the floor. Run the vent up thru the roof using normal fittings.

Like a million dollar roof over a 5 dollar plumbing system. If its so critical just do it correctly from the bottom.

 

[Plumber01]

There seems to be a lot of overthinking in this thread. The best installation would be to install a cleanout in an accessible location from the floor. Run the vent up thru the roof using normal fittings.

Like a million dollar roof over a 5 dollar plumbing system. If its so critical just do it correctly from the bottom.

^^^This x1000000

Use a swing joint.

Might as well just tear out and redo the whole plumbing system if you're worried about snaking an 1.5" vent from the roof. This thread could go on and on about plumbing theory. Why isn't there a two way cleanout on the drain this vent serves etc etc etc.......

 

[TheOverThinker]

Despite the fascinating back and forth above, I have plumbing to do.

I'm not going to tear into historic fittings to create a cleanout below, nor will I needlessly preclude future rare snaking from the roof.
Fortunately someone in another forum suggested paired angle elbows. Using short connector sections, it fits just barely. Here's my rough mockup:

Too bad it's plastic, oh well.
For the section that penetrates the roof, I'll paint it (black I guess) for more UV protection.
I suppose I could use some schedule 80 and ABS/PVC transition cement, but that seems inelegant.

Doing so nets me 325 additional Watts of solar generation, and a more pleasing panel layout. Thank you for your help in this thread, all.

 

[Reach4]

Fortunately someone in another forum suggested paired 22.5 elbows.

What you show in your picture are pairs of 45s, which were suggested here, along with 45 paired with 22.5.

Paired 22.5s would not do it. Think.

 

[wwhitney]

You can always switch back to galvanized before you penetrate the roof at the new location. Just save a piece of your old galvanized pipe and use another shielded rubber coupling.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

You can always switch back to galvanized before you penetrate the roof at the new location. Just save a piece of your old galvanized pipe and use another shielded rubber coupling.

For the ultimate in rain-proof and sun resistance, a lead roof boot with the top folded over the vent pipe cannot be beat. Whether you use plastic or lead, a roofer might be the best to merge that with the roof.

However TheOverThinker 's idea of paint over schedule 80 pvc conduit (which has a UV inhibitor) will have plenty of sun resistance. The mockup however shows ABS, and that is not going to glue properly to pvc with normal glue. Transition glue would probably make that aspect OK.

Is regular ABS sufficiently immune to the UV due to the carbon black in the formula? I don't know. https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/tr-18_weatherability_thermo_pipe_systems.pdf seems to say that common ABS is better at sun resistance than common PVC.

The plastic roof boots are less leakproof and probably have the potential for the sun to eventually do damage.

 

[Sylvan]

I went through a 5 year apprenticeship through local 469 plumbers and pipefitters in hjs home town Phoenix I have a plumbing license in two states. I am backflow certified. Gas certified and medgas certified. But you guys just wanna make yourselves look good by insulting other people who are just trying help.

So your a glorified apprentice very impressive

My training including my 3 years 65 -68 navy 17 -20 years old fire fighting school, boiler tender 1,500 PSI superheated steam , gave classes at the Newport naval war college on NBC warfare 1968 USAFI Classes and damage control

Was a member of UA plumbers Local 2 for my 5 year apprenticeship (10,000 hours) 744 hr classroom codes theory OSHA , Class A journeyman card


Certified medical gas installer, certified welder fusion and stick , Certified low pressure boiler installer and inspector , Certified fire suppression piping installer and inspector ,

The requirements for master licenses in NYC is 10 years documented working in the trade and then a 4 part exam practical and written. I also passed 3 more master plumbers exams

This not to be confused with my Master fire suppression license which is just theory and code

Passed stationary engineers license for central asboration systems and operating high pressure steam stations
certified operator and installer Leslie step down steam stations with my Johnson and Honeywell certifications for pneumatics

I have "journeymen" working for me who cannot pass a decent masters exam BUT like you are good union men obviously who rather have someone directing you so you do not have to make any real decisions being an employer

My shop superintendent is non union and is in America for 5 years and working for me for 3 years ,

He is not rank and file so he is paid $125 PER HR for 40 hrs a week ($250,000 a year) regardless of how many or how little hours he works per week plus next year he starts getting profit sharing

Last Saturday and Sunday he finished his gas certifications (ICC) and is taking the backflow license as TWO of my helpers had it and I do not know of anyone who failed that test . Actually I had a guy who never did plumbing pass the backflow license requirement

What my companies do ( I own 2)

We completed a fire suppression system on the 86th floor empire state building

We completed an acid waste NYU using Durion and chemical waste using Pyrex

North Central BX hospital we installed an autopsy table and oxygen lines and notorious as per NFPA which I was a long standing member as I was NAPHCC

Sloan Kettering installed acid crocks and related acid waste and neutralizing tanks

NYC housing we installed 5" stand piping and sprinklers in several projects




As for my my master plumbers licenses it just adds credibility

When I testify in court and the opposition asks the same questions when an expert appears as
follows

1- "Sir are you being paid to testify " Answer yes
2- "How much are you being paid" Answer $350 per hr but a min of 8 hours plus expenses when I have to appear in court or at a deposition

3- "What makes you an expert" Answer NYC master plumber / NYC master fire suppression / low pressure boiler inspector and installer , certified stationary engineer . Plumbing instructor for apprentices and journeymen, certified for medical gas piping and acid and chemical waste . allowed to do self certification on all my plumbing and fire suppression work ,

As I continue with most of my certifications that most decent plumbers would have it establishes credibility especially when I happen to mention I had 30 employees before I started to delegate most of my work to my superintendent who fired most of the journeymen as not being productive enough

I am paid going to the building to see what caused the problem (6 HRS) going to a deposition (8 hrs) and appearing in court

The opposition was trying to disqualify me until the judge found out NYCHA offered me a job chief supervisor of mechanical installation in 1983 for $132,000 a year which I turned down as it is an insult for a LMP to work for that kind of salary

By the way I Still do water jetting and sewer and drain cleaning and write articles for a law journal . This is why I have my LMP as it is called credibility

When was the last time James you made $16,800 for using your mind and not your mechanical skills

This is exactly what I made with the case below for 6 days of "work" This is why having a master license is a gold mine and like HJ we actually hold back what else we know as a true master gives all his information away some has to be earned



https://pospislaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Clinindin-v.-NYCHA.pdf

 

[Sylvan]

For the ultimate in rain-proof and sun resistance, a lead roof boot with the top folded over the vent pipe cannot be beat. Whether you use plastic or lead, a roofer might be the best to merge that with the roof.

However TheOverThinker 's idea of paint over schedule 80 pvc conduit (which has a UV inhibitor) will have plenty of sun resistance. The mockup however shows ABS, and that is not going to glue properly to pvc with normal glue. Transition glue would probably make that aspect OK.

Is regular ABS sufficiently immune to the UV due to the carbon black in the formula? I don't know. https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/tr-18_weatherability_thermo_pipe_systems.pdf seems to say that common ABS is better at sun resistance than common PVC.

The plastic roof boots are less leakproof and probably have the potential for the sun to eventually do damage.

I Can't agree with you more.

In the 1970's I was hired by a roofing contractor to help him install a roof that had 50 year warranty . I thought it was a joke at first but he said it was for Merrill Lynch over their computer rooms and it had to be maintenance free

We decided to use sheet lead 4 PSF and make a lead pan out of the entire roof and for the counter flashing we used lead coated 14 oz copper

I used bar solder and did all the joints and used a Bronze JR Smith roof drain

Nothing beats lead for longivity

 

[Sylvan]

For the ultimate in rain-proof and sun resistance, a lead roof boot with the top folded over the vent pipe cannot be beat. Whether you use plastic or lead, a roofer might be the best to merge that with the roof.

However TheOverThinker 's idea of paint over schedule 80 pvc conduit (which has a UV inhibitor) will have plenty of sun resistance. The mockup however shows ABS, and that is not going to glue properly to pvc with normal glue. Transition glue would probably make that aspect OK.

Is regular ABS sufficiently immune to the UV due to the carbon black in the formula? I don't know. https://plasticpipe.org/pdf/tr-18_weatherability_thermo_pipe_systems.pdf seems to say that common ABS is better at sun resistance than common PVC.

The plastic roof boots are less leakproof and probably have the potential for the sun to eventually do damage.

 

[TheOverThinker]

What you show in your picture are pairs of 45s, which were suggested here, along with 45 paired with 22.5.
Paired 22.5s would not do it. Think.

As far as I can think, a pair of any angles will work, as the two angles cancel each other out, yet give a rotational degree of freedom.
Yes, I only had 45's at hand for the mockup of the concept.

 

[wwhitney]

As far as I can think, a pair of any angles will work, as the two angles cancel each other out, yet give a rotational degree of freedom.

Let me borrow the language of locations on the earth.

If you start out plumb, you can always spin the first angle to hit any longitude you want. With a single angle, you have no choice in the latitude you hit, it's always 90 - the angle. With a second angle, the maximum latitude you can hit is 90 - both angles. But you can spin one angle relative to the other to hit any higher latitude.

So with two 45s, you can hit any point on the northern hemisphere. But with two 22.5s, you'd be restricted to latitudes 45 and higher. Since you want to go parallel to the roof, you want a latitude of 26.6 degrees. That means you need two angles that add up to at least 63.4 degrees. So you can do it with a 45 degree and a 22.5 degree angle

And if you use those two angles, my first post in this thread tells you exactly how much to spin each angle to hit the latitude you want.

Cheers,
Wayne

 

[Sylvan]

Reminds me on one LMP test was a question on a rolling offset


The first number you need to find when calculating a rolling offset is the "true offset" which is found using Pythagoras' theorem. This simply means that the offset squared plus the rise squared will equal the true offset squared. You then need to take the square root of the result to get the true offset.

 

[Sylvan]

I hate to depend on peace of rubber to keep sewer fumes from entering a structure

I have seen cheater vents placed below the over flow rim of fixtures or the flood level rim and the AAV allowed lots of waste to spew from it

Many are also installed improperly and sometimes vermin can block the AAV from sealing properly

The less mechanical parts the less chance of a failure

 

[TheOverThinker]

In the end I did not try to use an AAV/Cheater vent. Note my jurisdiction does not allow them at all, so that was really never an option.

I chopped the old galvanized vent that reached the roof, inside the accessible attic.
Then transitioned to ABS with a rubber no-hub. Then through to the roof.

In 50 years when the ABS dies on the roof, someone can change it out.
Similarly if they need to snake down from the roof, they can do it from inside the attic at
the no-hub.

With a standing seam metal roof you get a flexible EPDM gasket between the roof and the pipe, so nothing's permanent, it can be taken in and out. I add a sun shield to all such vents, so the rubber lasts longer.