New House, Shared Well, Iron and H2S

[a2it]

Not an expert like the rest of them but we just had chlorine injection put in for sulfur. In fact very high sulfur caused by sulfur bacteria. We chose this system because it seemed that no matter where we went for adivse the concenses was chlorine or peroxide for sulfur bacteria and high sulfur levels. All systems are maintenance, we have had in past houses water softeners, iron filters and in this house filter that uses air... it didn't clog for us but it didn't get rid of the sulfur smell or taste, it did improve it.
The chlorine injection which is followed by retention tank and carbon filter has worked wonders in this house for the first time in 20 years we can actually drink good tasting water. We just had it installed so maybe a year from now I may think differently. So far I haven't had to do anything. It looks like the tank that holds the bleach and water mix, won't have to have any filling ( going by how much it used up so far) for at least a couple of more months. They installed a small hose right after the carbon filter to use for adding the water. Then it is mixing a bottle of bleach to 7 gallons of water. When spring rolls around put a hose on retention tank and flush. Backwashing carbon filter regenerates once a week and carbon will need to be replaced in 3 to 5 years I was told at a cost of $150. Doesn't seem so bad. I understand it is good for iron as well although I can't say we have low iron and didn't need a softener. As I said a year from now I may think differently if there is need for repairs etc. But right now we have clear good tasting water that we can actually drink and doesn't smell for the first time in 20 years.

Just an opinion.

 

[Twinpeaksr]

Thanks for all the input. Not looking to debate Bleach injection here, looks like that has been done. Just want so pros/cons of Iron Filter vs Chlorinator.

Looking at what I have seen, it seems the Chlorinator gives the added bonus of taking care of Bacteria, the Well I have has no bacteria and is tested anually for it (never had any issues). So while that is nice, does not do much for me.

Sounds like the Carbon filter is great to take care of many things in the water, but it would not take care of H2S, which is why the Chlorinator would also be needed.

The Iron Filter would take care of the Fe and H2S, but may not be 100% effective with the H2S, also have seen that it takes quite a bit of water to backwash (may be untrue, what I have heard varies by a factor of 10). It does have the plus of not having to add anything (IE Cl).

Any other info I am missing?

Thanks!

~R~

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Akpsdvan]

It is good to hear from some one that has a system along the lines of what is getting talked about.

 

[Twinpeaksr]

It is good to hear from some one that has a system along the lines of what is getting talked about.

I second that!

 

[Akpsdvan]

Some thing else that needs to be thought of is "Space for Equipment"

What kind of room is there for holding tanks, pumps, storage tanks, media tanks....

If one has the room then retention tanks with chlorine , ozone are ways, if room is limited then there are other ideas that one is going to have to look into... 1 or 2 pieces of equipment to do the job.

Oh, what is the Ph of the water?

 

[Gary Slusser]

Thanks for the great conversation today, you definitely know your stuff! As I digest what I have learned, I had one open question:

What are the benefits of the chlorinator/carbon filter over a media based iron filter or an aerator? Always looking to learn something new.

thanks again! ~R~

Air with an air pump or air injection system should be your last choice. I never sold air injection but have service many and I sold air pumps for years until I found the chlorination system we are discussing here. That was 15 yrs ago.

An iron/H2S filter comes in two versions; backwash only or regenerated with something, usually potassium permanganate but it could be chlorinated water also. For 4-5 yrs I sold many Pyrolox filters regenerated with about 3" of chlorinated water out of a 18 x 33" salt tank. They worked for about 4-6 yrs and then had to be rebeded and people usually went with another choice instead of doing that because of the expense of Pyrolox.

In your case, especially with a potential of varying iron content, the filter will have to be LARGE! (2.5' or larger) and set up for the possible 5 ppm.

And to successfully and consistently backwash or regenerate it over years is probably not going to happen, and then what do you do when it starts failing?

You dump everything and replace the mineral or use a new kind to see how it works or, you start over with a different type of treatment; which more than likely will be chlorination.

Or... since 5 houses are using this well, and each family may have growing children as you do, and maybe more kids (like you want), means more water being pulled out of this community type well.

That means it's more likely that the iron and H2S present today will increase along with bacteria (IRB or SRB) being found eventually.That's why I propose my chlorination system. It works every time and for all future contingencies, has a 21 gpm flow rating, minimal maintenance requirements and takes up no more space than a regenerated filter would.

I and my customers have installed the pellet hopper, mixing tank, carbon filter out in front of the mixing tank and the softener resin tank with the salt tank under the hopper in less than 4.5'-5' along a wall and out from the wall about 20", so it doesn't take much space.

The pellets I use do not have the problems AK mentioned. Yes they cost like $12/month if bought annually but most customers are not buying new pellets every 12 months. The thread at the link Bob posted is showcasing a paranoid young lady's system. It is abnormal and her experience is exaggerated while we were joking.

The carbon lasts for many years (5+) and I've only had 2-3 customers with water leaks have to replace it in less time than that. The carbon is not regular carbon.

 

[Twinpeaksr]

Air with an air pump or air injection system should be your last choice. I never sold air injection but have service many and I sold air pumps for years until I found the chlorination system we are discussing here. That was 15 yrs ago.

An iron/H2S filter comes in two versions; backwash only or regenerated with something, usually potassium permanganate but it could be chlorinated water also. For 4-5 yrs I sold many Pyrolox filters regenerated with about 3" of chlorinated water out of a 18 x 33" salt tank. They worked for about 4-6 yrs and then had to be rebeded and people usually went with another choice instead of doing that because of the expense of Pyrolox.

In your case, especially with a potential of varying iron content, the filter will have to be LARGE! (2.5' or larger) and set up for the possible 5 ppm.

And to successfully and consistently backwash or regenerate it over years is probably not going to happen, and then what do you do when it starts failing?

You dump everything and replace the mineral or use a new kind to see how it works or, you start over with a different type of treatment; which more than likely will be chlorination.

Or... since 5 houses are using this well, and each family may have growing children as you do, and maybe more kids (like you want), means more water being pulled out of this community type well.

That means it's more likely that the iron and H2S present today will increase along with bacteria (IRB or SRB) being found eventually.That's why I propose my chlorination system. It works every time and for all future contingencies, has a 21 gpm flow rating, minimal maintenance requirements and takes up no more space than a regenerated filter would.

I and my customers have installed the pellet hopper, mixing tank, carbon filter out in front of the mixing tank and the softener resin tank with the salt tank under the hopper in less than 4.5'-5' along a wall and out from the wall about 20", so it doesn't take much space.

The pellets I use do not have the problems AK mentioned. Yes they cost like $12/month if bought annually but most customers are not buying new pellets every 12 months. The thread at the link Bob posted is showcasing a paranoid young lady's system. It is abnormal and her experience is exaggerated while we were joking.

The carbon lasts for many years (5+) and I've only had 2-3 customers with water leaks have to replace it in less time than that. The carbon is not regular carbon.

That is what I needed to know, thanks again!

 

[Bob999]

I want to make clear that I believe that a properly designed and maintained system like the one Gary prefers--pellet chlorination, retention tank, and a properly sized Centaur carbon backwashing filter works with the water condition being discussed in this thread.

In my opinion some of the cost claims are subject to question.

It is true that Iron filter media does sometimes fail--usually because of improper application or improper mainenance--and it is expensive to replace. It is also true that all media will likely have to be replaced at some point in the future even if properly applied and maintained. That is true for Filox as well as for Pyrolox.

However Centaur Carbon is also expensive to replace and it must be replaced on a periodic basis even when the application is proper and it is properly maintained because its capacity to remove chlorine is gradually used up. Centaur carbon, like virtually all media, will fail prematurely if it is not "successfully and consistently" backwashed when in service.

If your application would require a very large iron filter as Gary states then it would also require a very large Centaur carbon filter--the size of the filter is determined by the design flow. A 2 cubic foot Filox filter with Vortech tank will handle a flow of 12 gpm and will backwash with 10 gpm. Perhaps Gary can tell us what size Centaur Carbon filter will handle a flow of 12 gpm and what the backwash rate is on that filter. I hope he will also tell us the size of Centaur carbon filter that will handle the 21 gpm flow that he quotes for his chlorination system!

So my point here is to be careful to do comparisons with full data and if cost is one of the considerations in your decision making then be sure you get good information about all relevant costs before making your decision.

 

[Akpsdvan]

But when using a well one also looks to have Turn over with in the well and good runs on the pump that is in the well.

Ask a well driller which is better short runs on pumps and pulling water out of the well or longer runs on the pump and more of a turn over on the water within the well casing.

 

[Gary Slusser]

I want to make clear that I believe that a properly designed and maintained system like the one Gary prefers--pellet chlorination, retention tank, and a properly sized Centaur carbon backwashing filter works with the water condition being discussed in this thread.

Yes they do.

In my opinion some of the cost claims are subject to question.

It is true that Iron filter media does sometimes fail--usually because of improper application or improper mainenance--and it is expensive to replace. It is also true that all media will likely have to be replaced at some point in the future even if properly applied and maintained. That is true for Filox as well as for Pyrolox.

However Centaur Carbon is also expensive to replace and it must be replaced on a periodic basis even when the application is proper and it is properly maintained because its capacity to remove chlorine is gradually used up. Centaur carbon, like virtually all media, will fail prematurely if it is not "successfully and consistently" backwashed when in service.

If your application would require a very large iron filter as Gary states then it would also require a very large Centaur carbon filter--the size of the filter is determined by the design flow. A 2 cubic foot Filox filter with Vortech tank will handle a flow of 12 gpm and will backwash with 10 gpm. Perhaps Gary can tell us what size Centaur Carbon filter will handle a flow of 12 gpm and what the backwash rate is on that filter. I hope he will also tell us the size of Centaur carbon filter that will handle the 21 gpm flow that he quotes for his chlorination system!

So my point here is to be careful to do comparisons with full data and if cost is one of the considerations in your decision making then be sure you get good information about all relevant costs before making your decision.

Iron/H2S filter media fails very frequently IMO. That's becasue most of it is very heavy and difficult to backwash properly.

I have already told Twinpeaksr what size filter and softener his house and family require. If you were my prospective customer I would tell you too; you aren't, and it seems you have some need to pick at things I say while I see no need for it.

I mentioned the hopper and mixing tank has a 21 gpm rating. That does not mean the filter or softener requires the same SFR rating. It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use. And a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly etc..

Yes Centaur is expensive but not the most expensive when compared to a number of iron filter media that will also remove H2S at the flow rates that Twinpeaksr needs. Also, although I am sure some of my customers have had to replace their Centaur by now, they aren't buying it from me or letting me know they have to except the 3-4 that have had water leaks. If I had Centaur listed on my web site maybe I'd know of others.

BTW, the same cuft of most iron/H2S filter media will require a higher backwash gpm and thereby tehy will use more water than the same cuft of Centaur. And that will be true with a Vortech tank (unless of course you want to insure the filter's operation using less water Bob).

 

[Bob999]

I have already told Twinpeaksr what size filter and softener his house and family require. If you were my prospective customer I would tell you too; you aren't,

My understanding is that this board is primarily about sharing information and helping posters with questions posted so I am a little puzzled by your response which seems to say I have to buy equipment from you to get answers to questions.

 

[Gary Slusser]

My understanding is that this board is primarily about sharing information and helping posters with questions posted so I am a little puzzled by your response which seems to say I have to buy equipment from you to get answers to questions.

Yes it is Bob. And as you should see I answer posters questions in detail and have been for many years. And I've answered more of your questions to me than you answer of my questions to you. Why should I answer you when you refuse to answer me?

I'll ask again, do you sell equipment Bob? Or are you someone that owns some equipment? IOWs, what is your experience in water treatment and why do you care what I tell posters here or what I do or don't say to them?

Or at least answer this... why should I answer your questions to me when you are not looking for advice about your equipment or equipment needs or your water quality problems?

 

[Bob999]

Or at least answer this... why should I answer your questions to me when you are not looking for advice about your equipment or equipment needs or your water quality problems?

Out of courtesy and reciprocity.

I answer questions you pose about water treatment and equipment when you are not looking for advice or information about your water quality problems. I do not, however, answer personal questions and I don't ask you personal questions.

 

[Gary Slusser]

I answer questions you pose about water treatment and equipment when you are not looking for advice or information about your water quality problems. I do not, however, answer personal questions and I don't ask you personal questions.

You answer questions I pose about water treatment while looking for advice about my water quality problems? Really. Show me one.

 

[Akpsdvan]

Part of the challenge is that while that may be some new people here , some of the new people also have 20 years in this fun and crazy world of taking care of water for customers.
Me, I know the area that I live in for the most part but am still to this day coming across new challenges that I have limited or not seen before.
Water out side of where I live ,,, not a clue.. but there are some basics that do work be it here or some place else.

Those of us that have been doing this for years have learned not just what is in books, but field work.. and we like to use what has worked in the past with few problems, those ideas or ways that have more problems we tend to not use unless we truly have to or do not even go there.

Is there a piece of equipment for Every challenge? NO.. are there bad pieces of equipment ? no.. just equipment put on the wrong job.

There are any number that come here with NO IDEA what is going on and are looking for a few clues as to what is going on.. some place other than a sales person coming and painting a blue sky for them..

Years ago I was asked to sell on the web and I said NO... I work only in the area that I live in... and now as part of this form I will continue to do just that... help out when I can with answers if I can, clues if that is all that I can come up with.

Maybe I said it well, maybe I did not , either way so be it..

I will offer my ideas when I can and help when I can.

 

[NHmaster]

You said that just fine. I don't sell on the web either because I don't need to. We sell plenty around here without having to. But, these days you can pretty much find anything your heart desires out there, it's only a click away. I suspect that most pumps and filters get bought locally though because most folks have no idea how to install one and don't want to be bothered. Gary raises a good point about the BBB though and who do you trust?

 

[Twinpeaksr]

As I read through this thread (and others as well) it illustrates the fundamental issue when asking many people for their input on a problem: there is more than one right answer. Akpsdvan stated it, we use what we have found to work through experience, and like a safety net we stick with what we know works.

From the receiving side of the knowledge, I need to inform myself well enough to make a good decision on what will work in my situation based on the pros and cons of the different recommendations from others.

In this case I had 3 recommended system, based on the information from everyone here, I have been able to narrow down to the system that best fits my needs.

Thanks!

 

[Bob999]

You answer questions I pose about water treatment while looking for advice about my water quality problems? Really. Show me one.

Gary, Go back and read what I wrote. You have mischacterized it.

 

[Bob999]

I mentioned the hopper and mixing tank has a 21 gpm rating. That does not mean the filter or softener requires the same SFR rating. It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use. And a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly etc.

Gary, I don't understand how you come up with the statement the system would require "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly".

When I do the calculations for the use of solution with a 15 gallon tank it only needs to be replenished infrequently.

For example, if a household of 5 is assumed and if they use a typical amount of water (60 gal/day/person) then there are 300 gallons per day to treat. If I add 100 gallons per day to do the necessary backwashes on equipment (a generous allowance) then the total water to treat per day is 400 gallons. If I assume that the treatment level is 4 PPM chlorine and use a 5 gal/day Stenner pump and inject the chlorine in front of the pressure tank with a pump that delivers 22 gallons per minute then the amount of solution from the tank per day is less than 9 ounces per day. So if I assume that the solution is made up in 10 gallon quantities the tank will have to be refilled every 142 days. I certainly wouldn't recommend that the solution be made up in such large quantities but it seems to me that the figures demonstrate that a 15 gallon solution tank is very generously sized for a typical home installation.

I also don't understand the basis for your statement that "It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use."

My understanding is that the size of the retention tank required has nothing to do with the source of the chlorine--that whether it comes from a pellet system or a solution feeder system makes no difference in sizing the retention tank.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Gary, I don't understand how you come up with the statement the system would require "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly".

When I do the calculations for the use of solution with a 15 gallon tank it only needs to be replenished infrequently.

For example, if a household of 5 is assumed and if they use a typical amount of water (60 gal/day/person) then there are 300 gallons per day to treat. If I add 100 gallons per day to do the necessary backwashes on equipment (a generous allowance) then the total water to treat per day is 400 gallons. If I assume that the treatment level is 4 PPM chlorine and use a 5 gal/day Stenner pump and inject the chlorine in front of the pressure tank with a pump that delivers 22 gallons per minute then the amount of solution from the tank per day is less than 9 ounces per day. So if I assume that the solution is made up in 10 gallon quantities the tank will have to be refilled every 142 days. I certainly wouldn't recommend that the solution be made up in such large quantities but it seems to me that the figures demonstrate that a 15 gallon solution tank is very generously sized for a typical home installation.

I also don't understand the basis for your statement that "It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use."

My understanding is that the size of the retention tank required has nothing to do with the source of the chlorine--that whether it comes from a pellet system or a solution feeder system makes no difference in sizing the retention tank.

You are using book knowledge and attempting to apply it to real world situations without real world experience.

At one time Bob I sold solution feeders and serviced many that other dealers sold. You have one and love it, good for you. I refuse to sell them to my DIY customers because of all my experience with them and people telling me of their problems with one over the 13 yrs I've been been on the internet and in emails.

You are making incorrect assumptions Bob. I don't know what you are oxidizing and/or disinfecting with only 4 ppm of chlorine but you need a least that much or more for each ppm of iron, plus a variable amount for bacteria and then so much for H2S etc..

How are you controlling the solution pump, a flow switch or the well pump pressure switch? And you think that 10 gals will last all but 5 months for a family of 5, go try that with a customer and see how it goes with ever decreasing solution strength. Good luck with that.

I hope that people reading this don't take your figures to heart.