need advice on equipment upgrade-water tests attached

[GianniD]

Can use some help with the water treatment system. I had a house built over 3 years ago and based on the old water test attached, the salesman at Nelsen recommended a Katalox Media filter for the iron/sediment and a water softener for the iron. I ended up installing the system pictured and have noticed the clear pex turning red between the Katalox and the water softener. I'm also starting to see some mild staining on the toilets and sink. The Katalox filter doesn't seem like it's removing the Iron based on the red in the line and I figure the softener is doing all the work.

Currently I have the water softener set to regenerate on demand but I have it set to override every 8 days as it never uses the water required to make it regenerate sooner based on water usage. I occasional add Rust out or Resin cleaner about every month.

I'm not sure what I should do with the Katalox filter. I have taken the head apart and made sure it was clean and all seemed ok. I'm wondering if the media went bad and should be replaced. I'm not even sure I want to replace the media if it's going to only last 3 years. I did like the ideal of the Katalox filter as it acts as a sediment filter and iron remover but it's clearly not working now.

My thought is the scrap the Katalox filter all together and put a 20 inch big blue cartridge filter in its place and let the softener do the work with more frequent regeneration. Or is it possible to load the cabinet of the Katalox filter with a different media and keep it in place?

I installed this equipment myself and we put in a few pieces of treatment equipment a year. I'm a excavating contractor and offer this service when we install well equipment. I usually just sent out the water to get tested and forward the test to my salesman at Nelsen. Doesn't seem like his recommendation was good on this one. Thoughts?

 

[Reach4]

I think that insufficient backwash is often a problem with KL systems. I think 5 to 7 years for KL media typically.

You want about 8 or 9 gpm with a 10 inch tank in Ohio. It's too bad the tank is painted, because that prevents you from shining a light thru.

Cartridge filters are for sediment-- not manganese and iron.

I would not worry about that mild pex discoloration, but the toilet discoloration is worrying.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[GianniD]

I think that insufficient backwash is often a problem with KL systems. How old is the media?

You want about 8 or 9 gpm with a 10 inch tank in Ohio.

Cartridge filters are for sediment and not manganese and iron.

I was hoping the softener could handle the iron and manganese. Media is just over 3 years old. The link from Nelsen is how I was instructed to program the valve. I'm regenerating every other day. I'm not sure i'm getting 8-9 gpm out of it.

VESTA Control Flow Technology | Nelsen Corporation

VESTA Control Flow Technology Training Videos

www.nelsencorp.com

 

[Reach4]

Can you route the drain line to a 5 gallon bucket and do a backwash?

Time how long to fill. If S is number of seconds, GPM = 300/S.

 

[GianniD]

Can you route the drain line to a 5 gallon bucket and do a backwash?

Time how long to fill. If S is number of seconds, GPM = 300/S.

I could but I think it could be pretty difficult to do as everything is hard plumbed. I'm thinking if I'm going to do that' I'd just replace the unit with something different. I probably have pretty good flow. Now, that I think about it, I used 1 1/4 line down the well casing and into the house. It's also a pretty short run.

 

[Reach4]

Some pumps only deliver 6 or 7 gpm. During backwash, watch the pressure gauge. If it gets below 30, you are probably pump-limited.

A drain line can add backpressure.
The DLFC could be set to some small gpm such as 6. You should be able to find out how to check that.

Do you have a cartridge filter before the KL?

Replacing that unit is big bucks.

 

[GianniD]

Some pumps only deliver 6 or 7 gpm. During backwash, watch the pressure gauge. If it gets below 30, you are probably pump-limited.

A drain line can add backpressure.
The DLFC could be set to some small gpm such as 6. You should be able to find out how to check that.

Do you have a cartridge filter before the KL?

Replacing that unit is big bucks.

What's the DLFC?

No filter in front in front of the Katalox as I was told it would do the job of filtering sediment.

 

[Bannerman]

I don't see where the size of the softener and KL filter tanks are specified. I assume the softener is shown on the left which appears to be equipped with a smaller diameter tank compared to the tank on the right which is equipped with an AIO (air injection oxidation) head.

Also verify that the test results are for the raw well water, not the water after treatment.

R4 is correct regarding the backwash rate utilized for the KL media. The backwash flow rate is mainly governed by the Drain Line Flow Control (DLFC) / Drain Flow Control (DFC) flow restrictor that is installed.

The backwash rate requirement is typically specified by the media manufacturer as GPM per ft2, therefore, a larger diameter tank will require a higher flowing DLFC restrictor compared to a smaller diameter tank.

The usual recommended backwash rate for KL media is 15 GPM/ft2 to achieve 30% bed expansion. For a 10" diameter tank, this equates to 8.1 GPM whereas if your media tank is actually 12" diameter, then the drain flow rate should be 12 GPM. Or course, your well, pump and piping would also need to be capable of supplying the applicable flow rate so as to achieve the intended backwash rate.

KL media is the correct choice for removing iron. The media will cause the ferrous (dissolved) iron from the well, to become oxidized into a ferric state, so the resulting solids (rust) can then be filtered out by the granular media.

Part of Backwashing's purpose is to lift the media, expanding the spaces between the media granules, to allow the accumulated solid debris to be flushed to drain.

When the media backwash rate is insufficient, then the media will not be fully expanded, causing much of the debris to remain trapped. Since water always will follow the path of least resistance, water flow will usually follow a limited path through the media (channeling), which will become oversaturated with iron, thereby reducing the effectiveness of the media and allowing iron to pass through along that path.

The AIO head is designed to draw air into the media tank during the Draw cycle directly following the BackWash cycle. The oxygen within the air is to initiate oxidation of the iron before making contact with the media. While your iron content does not seem excessive to require an AIO system, benefits of AIO include reducing the oxidative load on the media.

As AIO will result in a bubble of compressed air at the top of the KL tank, a check valve will be required on the KL filter inlet, to prevent the compressed air from exiting the tank and potentially flowing backward to your well pressure tank whenever the system pressure is reduced.

 

[Reach4]

What's the DLFC?

Drain line flow control, which is the special washer that limits the gpm during backwash and fast rinse.

Clack WS1 service manual says V3162-090 is the part number for the 3/4 inch 9-gpm DLFC, and V3190-090 is the part number for the 1-inch version.

Is your KL tank 10 inch diameter? If 12 inch, then a higher backwash flow rate is called for.

Are the vertical pipes going down between tanks the drain lines? Is that 3/4 PVC or what?

You might consider calling the installer for service.

Also, I would wonder if there is not some kind of cleaning needed periodically.

Does your AIO system backwash nightly?

 

[GianniD]

The softener is on the left and these are both raw water tests. The tank is a 12 inch tank and the drain line is 3/4". I am the installer. Nelsen set the tank up with the components that it needed to operate properly. It's regenerating every other night which should be sufficient for the amount of water we use, 250 gallons a day or so.

I'm probably going to scrap the AIO/Katalox tank as it's obviously not doing it's job based on the staining in the line between the Katalox and water softener tank. I'm wondering if I could just use the tank and head with a different type of media. The Katalox or the way it is setup is obviously not working.

The salesman specced out the equipment for me based on the water test we had and the well information. Obviously something got messed up. No point in wasting all the water for this thing to regenerate if it's not working.

 

[Reach4]

so with a 12 inch tank, you want something more like 11 or 12 gpm of backwash.

I agree it is not working. You are upset. You are not asking how you might measure the backwash flow, and you are decided.

 

[GianniD]

so with a 12 inch tank, you want something more like 11 or 12 gpm of backwash.

I agree it is not working. You are upset. You are not asking how you might measure the backwash flow, and you are decided.

I can pretty much tell you the capabilities of an average well pump/tank is not going to make 12 gpm for the duration of the backwash cycle. They usually just don't push that hard and that's probably the problem. More than likely, the salesman who sold me the system didn't give me the right setup. Should of probably went with a 10 or possibly an 8 inch tank with a more frequent backwash. At this point, I'll just chalk it up as a loss unless I can utilize the tank/head for a sediment filter with a different media.

 

[GianniD]

Correction, this is a 13 by 54 inch tank by my invoice. Bigger problems I guess.

 

[Reach4]

Correction, this is a 13 by 54 inch tank by my invoice. Bigger problems I guess.

The required backwash varies with the square of the diameter.

My 10 inch tank of Centaur carbon only needs 5 GPM, but it has the hardware to rinse the media with a chlorine solution every 3 days. So it has the piston and injector that a softener would have.

A GAC tank has a similar backwash rate to my Centaur Carbon.

Injecting chlorine or H2O2 can precipitate out iron and I think Mn. GAC will remove the residual.

Ideally the bleach/peroxide will be at the input to a settling tank, which allows lower injection levels to get stuff settled.