Multiple leaks uponor pex 2012 home

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JohnCT

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Maybe Im the only one with 23 year old pex expansion with never a leak Is this rare unheard of or normal ?

Probably far more people with your amount of experience never had a PEX leak than did. I never did either but then again I just do my own properties and businesses, so my experience is certainly not exhaustive.

My concern though would be replacing a failed installation with the same product in the same location without knowing why it did fail.

John
 

Jeff H Young

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Probably far more people with your amount of experience never had a PEX leak than did. I never did either but then again I just do my own properties and businesses, so my experience is certainly not exhaustive.

My concern though would be replacing a failed installation with the same product in the same location without knowing why it did fail.

John
My experiance is limited I do repair plumbing in the area hundreds of new homes more like 1000 in my area that have pex. Only Pex problem Ive been out on was a Pex repipe on a 70 year old home had rats chew holes in the piping in crawlspace. Im in a small world I dont know plumbers in the area or really talk much with them , I just hear stories on here it be interesting to count them all up on a few of these complaint threads probebly less than 20 cases on the forums here.
how many freinds and neighbors do you know with repeated numerous failed pex ? or just basing it on this site
 

JohnCT

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how many freinds and neighbors do you know with repeated numerous failed pex ?

Me? None. Any and all incidents of PEX failures I'm aware of are from what I've read on this site and others, or videos on social media, but no personal experience, no.

John
 

CCCBuilder

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1. All hot line failures have been on three-quarter inch line. I had one under the slab 0.5 in cold line fail also, but my plumbers think it is unrelated based on how pipe looks

2. Yes. A lot of yellowing and discoloration. Some are evenly discolored. Some have splotchy yellow spots every few inches. I haven’t seen anything that is clear white other than completely new pipe.

3. because there was a a place for a return line on my water heater. All of the plumbers told me that that’s where a recirculating line would have been.

4. Not sure about the specifics of each individual claim. But I know that at least one denial was because of incoming water pressure of 85 psi.

5. they have replaced Uponor pex in other houses that have had failures over the last 8 or so years. each time, they have gone back with the same brand pex. In many cases, only the hot line has been replaced. I am not aware of anybody with repeat problems after hot recipe

that said, I am leaning towards doing both.
Thanks for the answers. Just trying to keep on topic on here, and to not just end up dead like so many other threads here with the Uponor issues or them ending with more extreme speculation.

Where are you at now with the 4 plumbers that were getting you estimates/bids?
1.) It sounds unrelated to me as well, improper handling is likely #1 reason for issues.

2.) Take some pics of the yellowing AND the splotchy parts, for your own reference of course but sharing here would benefit the thread/topic too.

3.) Gotcha, I understand some of the logic of 'preparing' for the recirc pump, but ONLY if it's a custom home because 99% of builders are not going to add in future perks to a home build, especially if it's a spec build. Any idea if your home was custom built or builder grade originally?

4.) Max PSI of 85? Never heard of that voiding warranty. The tubing and fittings are rated for over 100PSI if I recall correctly. But maybe 85 PSI with the recirc voids warranty because of the flow issue. PEX tubing when being recirc'd with hot water needs flow turned down.

5.) For your answer on #5, Did you ask or hear if those failures in the last 8 years were due to recirculator pumps? If they are going right back in with the same Uponor, they must have a valid reason, nobody here (locally) knows about Uponor when I chat with them, so I am curious why they are going right back with Uponor in those situations - they must be seeing or knowing something as to what caused the failures, possibly including your own?
 

Jeff H Young

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1. All hot line failures have been on three-quarter inch line. I had one under the slab 0.5 in cold line fail also, but my plumbers think it is unrelated based on how pipe looks

2. Yes. A lot of yellowing and discoloration. Some are evenly discolored. Some have splotchy yellow spots every few inches. I haven’t seen anything that is clear white other than completely new pipe.

3. because there was a a place for a return line on my water heater. All of the plumbers told me that that’s where a recirculating line would have been.

4. Not sure about the specifics of each individual claim. But I know that at least one denial was because of incoming water pressure of 85 psi.

5. they have replaced Uponor pex in other houses that have had failures over the last 8 or so years. each time, they have gone back with the same brand pex. In many cases, only the hot line has been replaced. I am not aware of anybody with repeat problems after hot recipe

that said, I am leaning towards doing both.
MJ23 , I have a question for you . things get a little confusing but when you said in #5 They have replaced uponor in other house that have had failures ........ ETC.
do you know why "they" did this type of repair only hot in many instances when you say only hot in many what about the others those repairs may have been entire repipes? Who makes these decisions and who is paying these plumbers ? If uponor is picking up the full tab then guess what suprise suprise they call the shots on the type of pipe etc. so the repair or repiping the plumber does might have little to do with thier opinion.
3. comment not real conclusive but yes probebly had a circ pump at one time and might be related to failure I dont know that recirculating pumps cause damage all along the hot water piping Ive never heard that to be common
 

Mj23

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Thanks for the answers. Just trying to keep on topic on here, and to not just end up dead like so many other threads here with the Uponor issues or them ending with more extreme speculation.

Where are you at now with the 4 plumbers that were getting you estimates/bids?
1.) It sounds unrelated to me as well, improper handling is likely #1 reason for issues.

2.) Take some pics of the yellowing AND the splotchy parts, for your own reference of course but sharing here would benefit the thread/topic too.

3.) Gotcha, I understand some of the logic of 'preparing' for the recirc pump, but ONLY if it's a custom home because 99% of builders are not going to add in future perks to a home build, especially if it's a spec build. Any idea if your home was custom built or builder grade originally?

4.) Max PSI of 85? Never heard of that voiding warranty. The tubing and fittings are rated for over 100PSI if I recall correctly. But maybe 85 PSI with the recirc voids warranty because of the flow issue. PEX tubing when being recirc'd with hot water needs flow turned down.

5.) For your answer on #5, Did you ask or hear if those failures in the last 8 years were due to recirculator pumps? If they are going right back in with the same Uponor, they must have a valid reason, nobody here (locally) knows about Uponor when I chat with them, so I am curious why they are going right back with Uponor in those situations - they must be seeing or knowing something as to what caused the failures, possibly including your own?

3. Yes custom build.

5. from what I am able to gather, the thinking here is that the recirculation pumps are responsible for the pipe failure, may be because of increased velocity, maybe they were incorrectly sized, who knows what else. But of course, nobody knows. So they go back in with the same material and don’t do a recirculation pump and they also put a pressure reducing valve at the main to keep pressure around 70 psi.

of the people, I know, a couple have had uponor foot at least part of the bill. Couple of others have done it themselves, after having been denied.
 

Mj23

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Don’t know all of the details in other cases, but it seems like uponor has paid for some, and not for others.

also, I think uponor has almost all of the market share in this area for Pex. many of the plumbers use it exclusively on all new builds and remodels.

so if I go back in with pex, pretty much has to be uponor.

I am still waiting on my copper re-pipe quote , but it will probably be too expensive
 

CCCBuilder

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3. Yes custom build.

5. from what I am able to gather, the thinking here is that the recirculation pumps are responsible for the pipe failure, may be because of increased velocity, maybe they were incorrectly sized, who knows what else. But of course, nobody knows. So they go back in with the same material and don’t do a recirculation pump and they also put a pressure reducing valve at the main to keep pressure around 70 psi.

of the people, I know, a couple have had uponor foot at least part of the bill. Couple of others have done it themselves, after having been denied.
Being a custom build would make me think more likely had the recirc pump. If they ran the line back to the water heater area to create the circular loop I feel like the people paying to build would have requested the pump be installed at that time. Why it was removed and then not replaced with a new one seems fishy, because then the cost to remove it would be part of the same cost to just replace it... I suspect maybe the information in the screenshot I post would prevent an educated plumber from installing a new recirc pump if this info applies to that tubing you have.

Yes, from my research, ANY kind of pex has specific ratings for once it becomes in use full time with hot water. I'm attaching a pic of something from Uponor. I haven't yet looked for their specific Pex A ratings but this is their PP-RCT tubing.
1705892858110.png

Don’t know all of the details in other cases, but it seems like uponor has paid for some, and not for others.

also, I think uponor has almost all of the market share in this area for Pex. many of the plumbers use it exclusively on all new builds and remodels.

so if I go back in with pex, pretty much has to be uponor.

I am still waiting on my copper re-pipe quote , but it will probably be too expensive
Uponor is #1 in market share of Pex A, again from my research I believe they are the ones that started Pex A, and the theory (until recently) was they were the best because they produced everything in-house while companies like Apollo and Sioux Chief, maybe others too? purchased the PEX from others and rebranded, or purchased the materials from others and didn't develop in house.
 
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Mj23

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OK. Decision made to re-pipe both hot and cold.

next decision is to choose which kind of material. I could either uponor pex-a again, pex b (like Zurn) or legend valve PE – RT.

My reservation with legend valve pe-RT is that it has only been around less than 10 years.

All of the plumbers prefer Uponor.

if I do uponor again, it will be with no recirc pump, a pressure reducing valve and maybe even a chlorine filter

thoughts?
 

JohnCT

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My reservation with legend valve pe-RT is that it has only been around less than 10 years.

I've never used it, but my understanding is that PE-RT uses the same base polymer but is less crosslinked (or not at all?). My limited understanding of crosslinking is that it gives the pipe certain characteristics, but longevity isn't one of them.

if I do uponor again, it will be with no recirc pump, a pressure reducing valve and maybe even a chlorine filter

Uponor is a great product, but what concerns me is that when a failure appears in any given location, it's never a single failure that could be attributed to something like a manufacturing defect like a bubble or perhaps a nick by an installer - it's always one leak after the other and no one knows why. The only thing that stops the repeated leaking is to replace the product entirely.

I've never seen a Uponor leak, but to be honest, if my house had wholesale leaks and no one could explain why, I would NOT use that product again in that location.

John
 

Jeff H Young

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I've never used it, but my understanding is that PE-RT uses the same base polymer but is less crosslinked (or not at all?). My limited understanding of crosslinking is that it gives the pipe certain characteristics, but longevity isn't one of them.



Uponor is a great product, but what concerns me is that when a failure appears in any given location, it's never a single failure that could be attributed to something like a manufacturing defect like a bubble or perhaps a nick by an installer - it's always one leak after the other and no one knows why. The only thing that stops the repeated leaking is to replace the product entirely.

I've never seen a Uponor leak, but to be honest, if my house had wholesale leaks and no one could explain why, I would NOT use that product again in that location.

John
Since my home hasent had leaks in 22 years nor do I know or heard any rumors of a leak problem in my tract of 100 homes Im not overly worried about my Uponor . This is not to say I belive there have been no problems,
If I had" wholesale leaks " id repipe. I think these problems are spotty and I dont buy that all Uponor is defective nor doubt the possibility that some Uponor was either defective or mis handled, I unlike some arent convinced that all pex hitting the market is junk though and we are all doomed , I belive its possible corrections have been made and Uponor hasent copped to changing anything or that might be construed as admiting fault or knowledge of a problem No opinion on the likelyhood of them fixing the issue on the quiet
 

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Since my home hasent had leaks in 22 years nor do I know or heard any rumors of a leak problem in my tract of 100 homes Im not overly worried about my Uponor . This is not to say I belive there have been no problems,
If I had" wholesale leaks " id repipe. I think these problems are spotty and I dont buy that all Uponor is defective nor doubt the possibility that some Uponor was either defective or mis handled, I unlike some arent convinced that all pex hitting the market is junk though and we are all doomed , I belive its possible corrections have been made and Uponor hasent copped to changing anything or that might be construed as admiting fault or knowledge of a problem No opinion on the likelyhood of them fixing the issue on the quiet
Out of curiosity, do you have a Uponor pex in your home and do you have a hot water recirculation pump?
 

Mj23

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I've never used it, but my understanding is that PE-RT uses the same base polymer but is less crosslinked (or not at all?). My limited understanding of crosslinking is that it gives the pipe certain characteristics, but longevity isn't one of them.



Uponor is a great product, but what concerns me is that when a failure appears in any given location, it's never a single failure that could be attributed to something like a manufacturing defect like a bubble or perhaps a nick by an installer - it's always one leak after the other and no one knows why. The only thing that stops the repeated leaking is to replace the product entirely.

I've never seen a Uponor leak, but to be honest, if my house had wholesale leaks and no one could explain why, I would NOT use that product again in that location.

John
Yes, the plan is to replace the product entirely. However, what to replace it with the issue.

in this area, there are really very few other choices. All of the re-pipes I know about, and most of the new builds are using Uponor Pex. spoke with a supply warehouse yesterday where the guy told me he couldn’t keep the thing on his shelf.
 

JohnCT

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Yes, the plan is to replace the product entirely. However, what to replace it with the issue.

in this area, there are really very few other choices. All of the re-pipes I know about, and most of the new builds are using Uponor Pex. spoke with a supply warehouse yesterday where the guy told me he couldn’t keep the thing on his shelf.

If the plan is to reuse Uponor in a location that is known to have already suffered a Uponor failure, I would take whatever precautions I can to eliminate whatever it was that caused your problem.

A filter to remove any chlorine products seems like a good idea, I would make sure all the pipe is completely covered from UV light - be it reflected from outside or generated by artificial lighting, and of course no recirc at all (that will prob eliminate the hot pipe from an earlier failure than the cold side).

If the problem is some other unidentified issue with water chemistry, then the filter may not protect the pipe.

John
 

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Out of curiosity, do you have a Uponor pex in your home and do you have a hot water recirculation pump?
Hi MJ23! I have uponor home built in 01 no circ pump.
I do sympathize with those having issues , circ pumps I havent heard were often on those with problems, but of cource If I was skittish about the soundness of my piping I might pass on a circ system
Causes are a bit of mystery to me but chlorine , sun, and the color of the pipe are belived by some , I dont know that those 3 haven been proven to cause it in a few cases or more than a few but thats the word spread by some. I guess we can add circ pumps to the cause?
I know its frustrating and it sounds like all the plumbers or vast majority in your area are hooked on Uponor expansion. Im a Plumber but I dont have pex tools and basicaly since im in my late 60s dont do a lot of plumbing work anymore beyond a few repairs Im not buying much of any tools , I could possibly invest for a re pipe or to build a whole house but hasent happened in awhile.
 

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Me? I'd repipe both hot and cold - with something else other than Uponor. The thought of impending hidden leaks would drive me nuts.

A single leak could be anything, but more than one leak is a pattern that won't get better. It seems that the hot water side always fails before the cold, but if the hot water side is failing at 10 years, the cold water side would probably start failing in another 5.

I'd repipe using a different brand of PEX since Uponor doesn't know why some pipe fails (multiple times at any given place) while most of their product never has a single leak ever. Maybe your water just doesn't get along with Uponor.
What Brand would you use? I was thinking of using Zurn pipe and expansion fittings for a repipe but got quoted Jones Stephens brand.
 

JohnCT

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What Brand would you use? I was thinking of using Zurn pipe and expansion fittings for a repipe but got quoted Jones Stephens brand.

I'm not *really* sure, but something other than Uponor at that location (the failure mode at that location being unknown at this point). I would consider either Legend's PE-RT, Sioux Chief, Rehau, Viega, or Zurn.

John
 

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I'm not *really* sure, but something other than Uponor at that location (the failure mode at that location being unknown at this point). I would consider either Legend's PE-RT, Sioux Chief, Rehau, Viega, or Zurn.

John
The problem is the supply houses don't carry Zurn and Zurn requires things to be bought in bag quantities. What would you think of using Zurn pipe with Uponor fittings or Jones Stephens fittings?
 

JohnCT

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The problem is the supply houses don't carry Zurn and Zurn requires things to be bought in bag quantities. What would you think of using Zurn pipe with Uponor fittings or Jones Stephens fittings?

No problem. Manufacturers have to conform to a standard - with respect to expansion, the F1960 standard means that any pipe fitting must have the same diameter.

If I was going to expand Zurn B, I'd use the Zurn expansion head which is different than the typical expansion head - it looks like it will be less prone to put grooves inside the pipe even with a rotating head.

John
 

dollinger

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No problem. Manufacturers have to conform to a standard - with respect to expansion, the F1960 standard means that any pipe fitting must have the same diameter.

If I was going to expand Zurn B, I'd use the Zurn expansion head which is different than the typical expansion head - it looks like it will be less prone to put grooves inside the pipe even with a rotating head.

John
Thank you for your advice. I was planning on purchasing the Zurn M12 heads to expand it. I'm trying to do things right. Someone on here mentioned that the Zurn fittings are crap. Not sure if that was an expansion or crimp heads.
 
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