Max time before regen with iron

[kk0710]

Hi all, I installed a 1.5cu/ft unit with with a fleck 5600 sxt controller. My water is only a bit hard and has a slight amount of iron. Data attached. It is just me and my wife, and my wife is not home that often as she is a travel nurse so a lot of water isn't used so I set the max regeneration delay to the max allowed of 14 days. I was just looking at the instructions from the manufacture online and it had a little extra information than the paper one that came with the unit, and it says that if you have iron you should max out at 7 days. I wanted to get thoughts from some pros. Obviously my goal is to minimize water and salt usage but if it is the detriment of anything else I should make some changes.

I have my settings set to max efficiency:
Capacity = 32k
hardness = 9
Day override = 14 as already mentioned
Backwash = 10 minutes
Brine draw = 60 minutes, seems long since brine tank only has 3 gallons of water.
Rapid rinse = 10 minutes
Brine Fill = 6 minutes

 

[kk0710]

Was this a bad or maybe a tough question? I can't seem to get any responses lol.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I presume this a water softener. This forum also covers some other things including iron filters.

Backwash and rapid rinse can be reduced.

Do you know what injector you have?

 

[kk0710]

I presume this a water softener. This forum also covers some other things including iron filters.

Backwash and rapid rinse can be reduced.

Do you know what injector you have?

I think backwash and RR are at the lowest settings. I'm asking about max time before regeneration. is 2 weeks too much. I don't know what kind of injector it has.

 

[Reach4]

Your iron, at 0.16 ppm is not all that high. So it is the iron that causes people to need to regen earlier.

One change I see that is called for is to raise H from 9 to 10. You want to multiply the iron number by 5, and add that to the hardness number. Then round up.

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin = 1.5 ; ft3 resin = (nominal grains)/32,000
Compensated hardness = 10 ; including any compensation
People = 2 ; gallons affects reserve calc
Estimated gal/day = 120 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days/regen = 25.00 ; Computed days including reserve

Fleck 5600SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/, Single Backwash, black cam
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
NT = 1 ; Number of tanks
C = 30.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 10 ; Hardness-- compensate if needed
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 120 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 14 ; Day Override (28 if no iron) [you could experiment with higher]
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BW = 5 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 6 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = ____0.7 ; https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/img_fleck5600sxt_flow-png.31592/

 

[kk0710]

Your iron, at 0.16 ppm is not all that high. So it is the iron that causes people to need to regen earlier.

One change I see that is called for is to raise H from 9 to 10. You want to multiply the iron number by 5, and add that to the hardness number. Then round up.

If you lift the cover, you may see a label with the injector number. However 60 minutes BD should be plenty unless you have a #000 Injector – Brown, and that is unlikely. #00 Injector - Violet would be a good choice. The BD time is broken down in two parts: actual brine draw, which usually takes on the order of 15 minutes. When the brine has been sucked out, the air check valve closes. Water continues thru the resin column at a low rate, and is called the slow rinse. The salt bolus continues thru the resin in a non-turbulent way, and gets rinsed out.

Backwash and RR could be set as low as one minute each, but you don't want that. But 6 minutes is typically sufficient.

Your C number is way off.
You are using more salt than 6 lb/cuft.-- you are using 9 lb/cuft currently.

System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft = 6 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC = 0.5 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin = 1 ; ft3 resin = (nominal grains)/32,000
Compensated hardness = 10 ; including any compensation
People = 2 ; gallons affects reserve calc
Estimated gal/day = 120 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Estimated days/regen = 16.67 ; Computed days including reserve

Fleck 5600SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = dF1b ; Downflw/, Single Backwash, black cam
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
NT = 1 ; Number of tanks
C = 20.0 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 10 ; Hardness-- compensate if needed
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 120 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 14 ; Day Override (28 if no iron)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
BW = 5 ; Backwash (minutes)
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
RR = 5 ; Rapid Rinse minutes
BF = 4 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = ____0.7 ; https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/img_fleck5600sxt_flow-png.31592/

I think we have a disconnect here. I have a 1.5 cu/ft tank and my settings are based on the manufacturer specs for most efficient. I don't get where you are getting that my capacity is way off or that I am only using 6 pounds of salt per regeneration?

 

[Reach4]

I somehow got your tanksize wrong. I will go back and edit the earlier post.

 

[kk0710]

I somehow got your tanksize wrong. I will go back and edit the earlier post.

Ok so if I understand, the only thing you're telling me to change is the hardness by 1. I used the .16 not the .3 when I did my calculation. But what about 2 weeks for regen? I am thinking of shortening it. Because we use so little water we almost never regenerate by usage. I'm having another problem though, and sometimes my water tastes funny. It's happening now and I Just verified that when I bypass the softener it goes away. I'm going to regenerate manually to see if it goes away.

 

[Reach4]

1. I now understand why I originally thought you had 1 cuft. "Capacity = 32k" would be marketing-speak for 1 cuft. But your first sentence was explicit with 1.5.

2. I also am suggesting C=30 and not 32. You might check other numbers to see if there are differences to think about.

3. Water tastes funny is ambiguous. "It's happening now and I Just verified that when I bypass the softener it goes away. " is not ambiguous. Did you sanitize your resin with bleach during installation? Some Fleck service manuals address that, but 5600SXT manual does not. See item 6 below. I am not saying that is causing your unwanted taste. The extra regen makes sense.

4. In retrospect, a 1 cuft softener might have been a better choice in your case, but I am not suggesting that you change it out.

5. Iron Out can be used as a batch treatment for a build-up of iron in the resin, and it can also serve as an additive to the salt.

6.The following is from the 5800SXT service manual
SYSTEM DISINFECTION
Disinfection Of Water Softeners
The materials of construction of the modern water softener
will not support bacterial growth, nor will these materials
contaminate a water supply. During normal use, a softener
may become fouled with organic matter, or in some cases with
bacteria from the water supply. This may result in an off-taste
or odor in the water.
Some softeners may need to be disinfected after installation
and some softeners will require periodic disinfection during
their normal life.
Depending upon the conditions of use, the style of softener, the
type of ion exchanger, and the disinfectant available, a choice
can be made among the following methods.
Sodium or Calcium Hypochlorite
Application
These materials are satisfactory for use with polystyrene
resins, synthetic gel zeolite, greensand and bentonites.
5.25% Sodium Hypochlorite
These solutions are available by various sellers of household
bleach. If stronger solutions are used, such as those sold for
commercial laundries, adjust the dosage accordingly.
1. Dosage
A. Polystyrene resin; 1.2 fluid ounce (35.5 ml) per cubic
foot.
B. Non-resinous exchangers; 0.8 fluid ounce (23.7 ml) per
cubic foot.
2. Salt tank softeners
A. Backwash the softener and add the required amount
of hypochlorite solution to the well of the salt tank. The
salt tank should have water in it to permit the solution
to be carried into the softener.
B. Proceed with the normal recharge.
Calcium Hypochlorite
Calcium hypochlorite, 70% available chlorine, is available in
several forms including tablets and granules. These solid
materials may be used directly without dissolving before use.
1. Dosage
A. Two grains (approximately 0.1 ounce [3 ml]) per cubic
foot.
2. Salt tank softeners
A. Backwash the softener and add the required amount of
hypochlorite to the well of the salt tank. The salt tank
should have water in it to permit the chlorine solution to
be carried into the softener.
B. Proceed with the normal recharge.

7. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my well and plumbing sanitizing write-up.

 

[kk0710]

"2. I also am suggesting C=30 and not 32. You might check other numbers to see if there are differences to think about."
What benefit does this gain? Won't this only be used to calculate the total amount of gallons that can be softened before regen?

"4. In retrospect, a 1 cuft softener might have been a better choice in your case, but I am not suggesting that you change it out."
Why? I picked 1.5 cu/ft so that I could maximize salt and water usage efficiency. Also, when I sell or rent this place there more be an uptick in water usage.

"5. Iron Out can be used as a batch treatment for a build-up of iron in the resin, and it can also serve as an additive to the salt."
I've been using mortons blue bag crystals without iron out since my iron was so little, but if you think it is worth it I will use it. Should all salt be the iron out kind or just throw a bag in once in a while?

6, disinfect
Certainly that is something I can do, this isn't even 6 months old though. How often should it be done?

While I am very appreciative of the info you are sharing, my main question has still not been answered as to the max time before regenerations lol. I just readjusted my settings and changed the hardness to 10 and the max delay before regen to 10 days instead of 14

 

[Reach4]

2. Yes.
5. Iron Out is a product, vs an iron-treating salt. More intense I think, but does have an odor in the brine tank. Rust Out is a clone.

Iron Out® Rust Stain Remover - 152 oz.

Since 1958 the category leader in rust stain removal. Iron Out is the best on rust. Works on white clothes, laundry, toilets, sinks, tubs, dishwashers, exterior surfaces, and much more. Also keeps water softeners clean and operating at peak effiecency.

www.menards.com

For a better-smelling salt add-on treatment, citric acid is good.

6. At installation . Then maybe whenever you sanitize your well house plumbing... which for me is about every 3 or 4 years.

You are asking for a formula as to how many days to set DO given a given amount of iron in your water. I was not being coy. I know of no such formula. So while I am writing stuff that may be helpful, I am not dodging the question. I just don't know a definitive answer, other than dunno.

But here is a datapoint: see post #5 of https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/softener-sizing.67994/
It says "3 days if you have over 2 ppm of iron". But your iron is a lot less than 2 ppm (AKA mg/l).

The DO can affect how much residual iron sticks with the resin. If the resin is getting degraded (meaning more residual hardness just before regenerating), then you could decrease DO. But you could also just do a batch treatment of your resin every x months or as needed.
===========================================

A way to use Iron Out crystals to treat your resin periodically to deal with iron. This is not an authoritative procedure, but it should be pretty good.

A softener is not the best way to deal with significant iron, but it can be economical or cash-flow positive.

1.Dissolve 1/4 to 1/2 cup of Iron Out crystals into maybe 1 or 2 gallons of warm water.(X1: option -- maybe up the dose) Pour this into the brine tank, possibly down the brine tube. Agitate if you can.
2. Let this sit for 2 hours to 2 weeks. (X2: option: move the salt aside if the salt is shallow to expose liquid, and pour the IO into the liquid.
3. Start a regeneration. Usually after backwash, the brine draw cycle starts. Get to brine draw however it happens. Let the brine get drawn until the the brine tank is almost drawn. (X2) Alternatively monitor the drain line with a TDS meter, and look for a big increase in TDS. At that point, stop the flow of water with the bypass valve. That will let the solution sit in contact with the resin.

4. Let the solution sit in the resin for a time. That time (X3) might be an hour or might be 4 hours.

5a alternative: With an electronic timer, the cycling will continue while the water is off. However since the water is blocked, the solution says in contact with the resin. Then do a full regeneration to get the solution all cleaned out.

5b alternative: If you have an electromechanical valve, you can unplug the softener, and the softener will hold in the midst of the BD cycle. After you turn the water on, brine draw will continue, and you can slowly let the brine+IO interact with the resin for maybe 30 minutes. Turn the power back on, and the regen will continue and complete. That will get more efficiency out of the solution.






Note: various old posts have tried to describe a procedure, and I have tried to assimilate those. Go ahead and criticize this procedure. Different views can be helpful in tweaking a procedure. Or better yet, point to a writeup of the procedure that you like better.

There is not just one right way.

The X1, X2, etc are reference places to assist comment on times etc.