Softener setting help

[Mihomeowner]

Thanks in advance, trying to make sure my equipment is set up correctly. Mostly trying to figure out the setting on my Fleck 5600SE for gallon capacity and how often my iron filter should run.

Source = Well
Equipment = Fleck 5600SE
Tank = 9x48 (1 cf?)
Brine tank hose = .25 GPM .75 LB SALT/MIN (blue sticker)
Hardness = 5
Iron = 3
Family size = 5

So my water softener controller is a meter based, currently set to regenerate after 2230 gallons of flow. The current system is working correctly (iron is zero post filters). I would mostly like to make sure I have the right settings, and have a better understanding of the system, and make sure I am not wasting salt. I feel like I dump around 2 bags a month in it.

Fleck 5600 settings:
Gallons per regen = 2230
Regen day override = 6

I got in to the advanced settings on the 5600 controller and came up with the following. There are 5 steps when going through the programming, but only 4 steps listed on the unit so I am not sure if they correlate?

Step 1 (brine/rinse) - 60
Step 2 (Backwash) - 15
Step 3 (Rapid rinse) - 15
Step 4 (Brine refill) - 20
Step 5 (?) - OFF

I am a bit confused in the manual where it says:

your desired salt setting must be calculated, using the blue (.25 gpm) or black (.5 gpm) rate of refill (in gpm) times your timer setting. Then using one gallon of fresh water dissolving approximately 3 lbs of salt, calculate your refill time

Example: lbs. salt 3 ÷ B.L.F.C. Size = refill time in minutes, 10 lbs. salt ÷ 3 ÷ .25 = 13.3 minute refill

So I have to figure out how much salt I want to use knowing my hardness and tank size? Is there a chart for that? Also, what is "BLFC size?" I think that is the .25?

So assuming I am correct about that, and working backwards with the above equation, it would be :
salt setting / .25 (my blue sticker) = 20 (off step 4 above)
salt setting = 5

If I am correct my current salt setting is 5. Does that sound right? Where does the .75 lb salt/min come in to play?

For my iron filter, it's a more primitive controller and I am not even sure what to set it to. Currently I have it running 3 times a week - Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday. Like I said the iron filter seems to be working - not having iron build up in toilets or anything. But is 3 times a week overkill?

Thanks for any help clarifying!

 

[Reach4]

If your iron filter is doing its job, the iron will be much less after the filter. You normally want to compensate for iron as 5 grains per 1 ppm iron. That would give you a calculated hardness of 3*5+5=20, something less would be called for after your iron filter.

So I have to figure out how much salt I want to use knowing my hardness and tank size? Is there a chart for that? Also, what is "BLFC size?" I think that is the .25?

So assuming I am correct about that, and working backwards with the above equation, it would be :
salt setting / .25 (my blue sticker) = 20 (off step 4 above)
salt setting = 5

If I am correct my current salt setting is 5. Does that sound right? Where does the .75 lb salt/min come in to play?

With Tank = 9x48 (1 cf), you would want I think BF=11 or 10. That will cut your salt use to about half per regeneration.

But your expected softening would be for about 1075 gallons, and subtracting 5*60=300 gallon reserve, calls for a a remaining 775 gallons before you get into the reserve. Then at the next 2AM, you regen.

Step 1 (brine/rinse) - 60
Step 2 (Backwash) - 15
Step 3 (Rapid rinse) - 15
Step 4 (Brine refill) - 20
Step 5 (?) - OFF

So I am thinking
Step 1 (brine/rinse) - 60
Step 2 (Backwash) - 8
Step 3 (Rapid rinse) - 6
Step 4 (Brine refill) - 11

For the number of gallons, you could leave that high, and note how many gallons on the display remain when you get down to 1 grain of hardness. Compute how much that dropped. Subtract your reserve, and program in that number of gallons.

It may take a while to get to a steady state, because you have been using 15 lb/cuft of salt for each regen.

The less salt per cubic ft, the more salt efficient, but more hardness breakthrough.​	​	​	​
BLFC​	0.25​	​	​
cubic ft resin​	1​	​	​
​	​	​	​
Alternative capacity (C) and brine fill (BF) pairs. Round C down.​	​	​	​
lb/cuft salt​	Capacity grains/100​	Brine Fill, Step 4​	grains/pound of salt​
6.0​	21.0​	8​	2335​
6.8​	22.2​	9​	2197​
7.5​	23.3​	10​	2073​
8.3​	24.3​	11​	1963​
9.0​	25.2​	12​	1863​
9.8​	25.9​	13​	1773​
10.5​	26.6​	14​	1691​
11.3​	27.3​	15​	1617​

As to how long to go between backwashes for the iron filter, that depends on the media.

Your softener has been dealing with the residual iron, so it may be worthwhile doing a treatment. I like Iron Out powder. https://www.menards.com/main/grocer...er/io65n/p-1444444182277-c-7097.htm?exp=false big bottle. Others prefer citric acid or phosphoric acid, which smell better. The IO smell is not that bad to me, and it is effective.

If you plan to do that, I can point to previous discussions on that.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

Hardness = 5
Iron = 3

How were these values determined?
Are these values based on the same perimeters? (both iron and hardness are often stated as PPM, but hardness is often alternately stated as gains per gallon (GPG))

Like I said the iron filter seems to be working - not having iron build up in toilets or anything.

What media is contained in your iron filter? How much iron removal media is contained? The filter tank size appears larger than the softener's, which for 1 ft3 softener resin, will typically be installed in a 9" X 48" media tank.

Assuming 3 is indicating iron ppm, that is a considerable amount to be removed.

Are you only relying on not seeing iron residue in toilets to access how effectively the iron reduction filter is functioning, or are you utilizing a test kit to measure the amount of iron remaining directly after the filter? If some iron is leaking through the filter, then that will be increasing the load for the softener to remove the iron in addition to (5 gpg??) hardness. An iron being removed by the softener will require the softener's setting to be increased above the hardness amount, to compensate for the additional capacity being depleted by the iron.

The usual recommendation for 1 ft3 resin (32,000 grains total hardness removal capacity), will be to program regeneration to occur when no more than 24,000 (24K) grains capacity has been depleted. To regenerate 24K grains usable capacity, will require only an efficient 8 lbs salt, thereby resulting in a hardness reduction efficiency of 3,000 grains/lb.

Each gallon of water entering the brine tank, will cause 3 lbs salt to become dissolved to create salt brine.
With your current 20-minute Brine Fill setting X 0.25 gpm BLFC (brine line flow control) flow rate, equals 5 gallons water entering during brine fill, thereby resulting in 15 lbs salt becoming dissolved each cycle.

With the Capacity setting set to 24 (X1000 grains), then to dissolve 8 lbs salt, will require the BF setting to be reduced to 10.66 (11-minutes).

Although there is currently more brine already produced than required to regenerate 24K grains capacity, there is no harm in the greater amount of brine being drawn during the next subsequent regeneration cycle. With the 11-minute BF setting pre-programmed before the next regen cycle occurs, then 2.75 gallons will refill the brine tank at the end of the cycle, to cause 8.25 lbs of salt brine to be prepared for each future regen cycle.

 

[Mihomeowner]

If your iron filter is doing its job, the iron will be much less after the filter. You normally want to compensate for iron as 5 grains per 1 ppm iron. That would give you a calculated hardness of 3*5+5=20, something less would be called for after your iron filter.

Sorry, forgot to mention - those iron and hardness numbers from above are PRE all filters - straight out of the well. The post filter numbers are much lower.

With Tank = 9x48 (1 cf), you would want I think BF=11 or 10. That will cut your salt use to about half per regeneration.

But your expected softening would be for about 1075 gallons, and subtracting 5*60=300 gallon reserve, calls for a a remaining 775 gallons before you get into the reserve. Then at the next 2AM, you regen.

How did you come up with the expected softening of 1075 gallons?

So I am thinking
Step 1 (brine/rinse) - 60
Step 2 (Backwash) - 8
Step 3 (Rapid rinse) - 6
Step 4 (Brine refill) - 11

For the number of gallons, you could leave that high, and note how many gallons on the display remain when you get down to 1 grain of hardness. Compute how much that dropped. Subtract your reserve, and program in that number of gallons.

It may take a while to get to a steady state, because you have been using 15 lb/cuft of salt for each regen.

So the 15 lb/cuft number you are coming up with is the brine refill (mine is 20 min) x blue sticker of .75 lb salt per min? Does that basically set up how much water is going back in to your salt tank?

Also, with regard to testing how many gallons on the display when 1 grain of hardness - I have a TDS meter to get hardness from. Are you saying monitor the hardness throughout the cycle? Will I see a noticeable difference in it as the gallons move through the system?

The less salt per cubic ft, the more salt efficient, but more hardness breakthrough.​	​	​	​
BLFC​	0.25​	​	​
cubic ft resin​	1​	​	​
​	​	​	​
Alternative capacity (C) and brine fill (BF) pairs. Round C down.​	​	​	​
lb/cuft salt​	Capacity grains/100​	Brine Fill, Step 4​	grains/pound of salt​
6.0​	21.0​	8​	2335​
6.8​	22.2​	9​	2197​
7.5​	23.3​	10​	2073​
8.3​	24.3​	11​	1963​
9.0​	25.2​	12​	1863​
9.8​	25.9​	13​	1773​
10.5​	26.6​	14​	1691​
11.3​	27.3​	15​	1617​

When people are talking about a "salt setting", is that the first column? I thought my "salt setting" was 5 (based on initial post)... but is that lbs of salt or lb/cuft? Is that the same thing for me since I have 1 cf of media? So I have been using 15 lb/cuft... basically off the chart?

As to how long to go between backwashes for the iron filter, that depends on the media.


Your softener has been dealing with the residual iron, so it may be worthwhile doing a treatment. I like Iron Out powder. https://www.menards.com/main/grocer...er/io65n/p-1444444182277-c-7097.htm?exp=false big bottle. Others prefer citric acid or phosphoric acid, which smell better. The IO smell is not that bad to me, and it is effective.

If you plan to do that, I can point to previous discussions on that.

Does the fact that my numbers are PRE filters change this?

Thanks for the very helpful info!

 

[Bannerman]

Where does the .75 lb salt/min come in to play?

As 1 gallon water will dissolve 3 lbs salt, then each 1-minute BF X 0.25 gpm BLFC will equal 0.75 lbs salt.

 

[Bannerman]

Does the fact that my numbers are PRE filters change this?

All initial water testing is to be based on the raw well water. Knowing this info helps to determine conditions and severity for treatment. Suggest posting your current full lab test report.

Once treatment is implemented, then a hardness test kit (Hach 5B) is recommended. In addition, because there is a considerable quantity of iron requiring removal, an iron test kit is also recommended, to access how effective the iron reduction filter is functioning. The water sample for iron testing, should be obtained from directly following the iron filter, but before the softener.

 

[Bannerman]

I have a TDS meter to get hardness from.

TDS is NOT an indicator of water hardness.

TDS means Total Dissolved Solids.

An electronic TDS meter estimates dissolved solids based on electrical conductivity, but does not report specific dissolved solids.

A salt based softener utilizes ion exchange to remove hardness ions which increase hardness (mainly calcium and magnesium), replacing those with an equivalent quantity of sodium ions. As such, the meter will not show TDS being lowered following a softener, but the meter will often show a higher TDS number due to a difference in electrical conductivity between calcium, magnesium and sodium.

To measure total water hardness accurately, a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit is the recommended hardness testing method.

 

[Mihomeowner]

How were these values determined?
Are these values based on the same perimeters? (both iron and hardness are often stated as PPM, but hardness is often alternately stated as gains per gallon (GPG))

We got the iron tested PRE and POST filter. When I say POST filter, I mean both the iron filter and water softener. There is no means to get water POST iron but PRE filter (although I guess it would be nice to monitor the iron filter?)

So when we got it tested PRE filters, iron was 3ppm. POST filters was 0. I know 3 ppm is fairly high. We got a complete lab report but it was POST filters and showed 0.02 iron and 0.6 hardness. Perhaps we should have done it pre filter, but I think at the time we were wanting to know if our iron filter was keeping up.

What media is contained in your iron filter? How much iron removal media is contained? The filter tank size appears larger than the softener's, which for 1 ft3 softener resin, will typically be installed in a 9" X 48" media tank.

My softener is 9 x 48. The iron filter is bigger, yes. Measures around 12 x 48. I am not sure what media is in it.

Assuming 3 is indicating iron ppm, that is a considerable amount to be removed.

Are you only relying on not seeing iron residue in toilets to access how effectively the iron reduction filter is functioning, or are you utilizing a test kit to measure the amount of iron remaining directly after the filter? If some iron is leaking through the filter, then that will be increasing the load for the softener to remove the iron in addition to (5 gpg??) hardness. An iron being removed by the softener will require the softener's setting to be increased above the hardness amount, to compensate for the additional capacity being depleted by the iron.

Unfortunately no easy way to access the water post iron filter. Is this plumbed in sometimes? Would be nice. We had a water company come out and they did a pre and post filter test... that is where I came up with the numbers.

The usual recommendation for 1 ft3 resin (32,000 grains total hardness removal capacity), will be to program regeneration to occur when no more than 24,000 (24K) grains capacity has been depleted. To regenerate 24K grains usable capacity, will require only an efficient 8 lbs salt, thereby resulting in a hardness reduction efficiency of 3,000 grains/lb.

Each gallon of water entering the brine tank, will cause 3 lbs salt to become dissolved to create salt brine.
With your current 20-minute Brine Fill setting X 0.25 gpm BLFC (brine line flow control) flow rate, equals 5 gallons water entering during brine fill, thereby resulting in 15 lbs salt becoming dissolved each cycle.

With the Capacity setting set to 24 (X1000 grains), then to dissolve 8 lbs salt, will require the BF setting to be reduced to 10.66 (11-minutes).

This is great info and really helps clear it up for me. When you say "with the capacity setting set to 24 (X1000 grains)" - that "setting" is just based on my tank size and the standard 1 cf for that size tank, right? No setting that can be adjusted on my controller?

Although there is currently more brine already produced than required to regenerate 24K grains capacity, there is no harm in the greater amount of brine being drawn during the next subsequent regeneration cycle. With the 11-minute BF setting pre-programmed before the next regen cycle occurs, then 2.75 gallons will refill the brine tank at the end of the cycle, to cause 8.25 lbs of salt brine to be prepared for each future regen cycle.

So currently my brine solution that is cleaning the media (sorry for layman's terms) is a bit "over the top"? Possibly using too much salt and depleting my salt supply a bit faster than necessary?

All initial water testing is to be based on the raw well water. Knowing this info helps to determine conditions and severity for treatment. Suggest posting your current full lab test report.

Once treatment is implemented, then a hardness test kit (Hach 5B) is recommended. In addition, because there is a considerable quantity of iron requiring removal, an iron test kit is also recommended, to access how effective the iron reduction filter is functioning. The water sample for iron testing, should be obtained from directly following the iron filter, but before the softener.

TDS is NOT an indicator of water hardness.

TDS means Total Dissolved Solids.

An electronic TDS meter estimates dissolved solids based on electrical conductivity, but does not report specific dissolved solids.

A salt based softener utilizes ion exchange to remove hardness ions which increase hardness (mainly calcium and magnesium), replacing those with an equivalent quantity of sodium ions. As such, the meter will not show TDS being lowered following a softener, but the meter will often show a higher TDS number due to a difference in electrical conductivity between calcium, magnesium and sodium.

To measure total water hardness accurately, a Hach 5B Total Hardness test kit is the recommended hardness testing method.

I will look in to the Hach 5B test for water hardness and will probably order one. My TDS reading came up with roughly (+/- 0.5 gpg) the same that the water company came up with, so I thought it was a pretty good indicator. Is there a good at home iron tester?

 

[Reach4]

So the 15 lb/cuft number you are coming up with is the brine refill (mine is 20 min) x blue sticker of .75 lb salt per min? Does that basically set up how much water is going back in to your salt tank?

Yes.

Also, with regard to testing how many gallons on the display when 1 grain of hardness - I have a TDS meter to get hardness from. Are you saying monitor the hardness throughout the cycle? Will I see a noticeable difference in it as the gallons move through the system?

I have not actually seen a 5600SE. What does the display indicate in normal operation. I was thinking it would display remaining gallons before getting into the reserve, alternating with time of day. What does it display?

With your TDS meter, what does it show? Total hardness in ppm will be less than the TDS in ppm. Hardness in grains =(hardness in PPM)*17.1

You compute the number of gallons to be capacityGrains/hardness -Reserve. I don't know what this means:

when 1 grain of hardness

 

[Bannerman]

When operating a private well, you are your own water supplier. You are fully responsible for the safety and useability of the water utilized by your family and visitors.

Always recommended to periodically have your water independently tested by a qualified testing lab such as National Labs.

Relying on a limited onsite testing performed by multiple water treatment companies, will often result in a broad range of different results for the same conditions. Results can vary depending on the age and condition of the test kits each utilizes. Since almost all expect to benefit from you agreeing to purchase additional equipment and services from them, that is often an incentive to overstate conditions requiring additional treatment, or requiring replacement of existing treatment equipment, which may or may not be actually necessary.

In using a qualified testing lab, their expensive equipment will be regularly tested and calibrated, and, an independent lab has nothing to gain/loose whether or not you require additional treatment. Once a comprehensive test report is provided, if you decide further treatment is needed, you will then be able to discuss treatment options with multiple water treatment professionals, based on the accurate and consistent results provided by your lab report.

no easy way to access the water post iron filter. Is this plumbed in sometimes?

A sampling valve (boiler drain valve) should rightly be installed between each treatment device, to obtain testing samples to determine the effectiveness of each device. Right now, you can't determine how effectively the iron filter is functioning, so there could continue to be some amount of iron that is being removed by the softener.

Water pH has a large bearing on the effectiveness of iron reduction media, especially if there is also manganese that the media is exposed to.

My TDS reading came up with roughly (+/- 0.5 gpg) the same that the water company came up with, so I thought it was a pretty good indicator. Is there a good at home iron tester?

As previously stated, TDS does not indicate hardness, nor does it indicate the iron quantity.

Hach does offer a HA-62B kit which incorporates testing for Hardness, Iron and pH.

So currently my brine solution that is cleaning the media (sorry for layman's terms) is a bit "over the top"? Possibly using too much salt and depleting my salt supply a bit faster than necessary?

The current brine amount is sufficient to regenerate 30K grains capacity in 1 ft3 resin. While this is doable, the efficiency of salt vs usable capacity will be low at only 2,000 grains per lb. (30,000 gr / 15 lbs)

The chart below, shows the relationship of salt (per ft3 of resin) compared to the amount of useable capacity, hardness reduction efficiency and hardness leakage (soft water quality). While lower salt amounts will increase salt efficiency, less capacity will be regenerated, so regeneration will need to be more frequent. In addition, higher hardness reduction efficiency will increase the amount of hardness leakage passing through the softener, thereby resulting in reduced soft water quality.

For the best balance of useable capacity, high water quality, and high useable capacity, the usual recommendation will be to program a 1ft3 softener with a useable capacity of 24K grains, thereby requiring 8 lbs salt each cycle. Hardness reduction efficiency will then equal 3K grains/lb, and Hardness leakage will eventually climb to only 6 ppm, thereby continuing to provide high quality soft water.

While you could further increase efficiency to 3,500 gr/lb by setting C=21 & using only 6 lbs salt, the amount of hardness leakage will increase to 10ppm, so soft water quality will become lower by comparison.

FYI, 1 gpg hardness = 17.1 ppm actual hardness (not TDS).