Pentair now has filters with drain valves. I don't know if the sumps are compatible with the no-drain types. I would suspect yes, but it is best to not assume.
Cheapest way to lower manganese
- Thread starter Charrie
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Again, thanks guys!
I am just now starting to learn about filters in more detail since there are none right now except for the one at the well which is more of a strainer then a filter.
Is there a big difference in the housing quality of the filters?
Is there a problem in using 2 10" filters instead of 1 20" filter? The second one with a finer filter then the first?
I ask because if I remember correctly, the 10" housings and spun filters at my hardware store were fairly cheap compared to the ones I am seeing online and the one you shared a link to Reach4. It is not an ace but one of the older independent owned hardware stores that everyone goes to when they cant find it anywhere else. They have a whole isle dedicated well equipment.
Reach4 , you mentioned you have a backwashing iron+H2S filter right after the pressure tank. I am thinking about trying to leave space for a tank between my pressure tank and the softener tank. The reason is in case I needed to add a backwashing filter. I have the 10"x54" tank that is used as a contact tank right now. I called one of the larger water equipment stores and the guy said NO my tank would not work for a backwashing filter tank. He didn't have the specs for my tank and just said flat out, NO. From all the research I have done, I don't see why it would not work? I was think that for now if I need a backflushing filter, I could use a manual valve as they are only around $50 to $75. I would need the tube and media. I will wait and see what the water tests show once I the HP system back up and working with the pressure tank relocated.
Reach4, My water softener control is not programmable for more then every 24 hours. Only the daily time and hardness. It is an echosystem and looks just like a Kenmore I saw in a video except that the Kenmore had the media tank in the brine tank.
Yes it would be great to sample the water right after the filters!
Taylorjm , a couple of days ago I just watched a video where a guy was installing 3/8 valves on the bottom of his filter housings and thought ,that's the way to go! I am thinking about how to design something to mount under the set of filters like a gutter to catch the water and drain it into one place where the bucket cold sit instead of moving the bucket for each filter. i have a piece of 3" pvc that maybe I could cut part of one side off, say 2", then cap each end and install a drain on one end?
Do you have a backwashing filter Taylorjm? I believe you aid that your iron and manganese levels were much higher then mine.
Thanks for the info on the transformers Reach4. Interesting using the GFCI. Can you use just a ground rod for a GFCI ground?
Thanks Charrie
I am just now starting to learn about filters in more detail since there are none right now except for the one at the well which is more of a strainer then a filter.
Is there a big difference in the housing quality of the filters?
Is there a problem in using 2 10" filters instead of 1 20" filter? The second one with a finer filter then the first?
I ask because if I remember correctly, the 10" housings and spun filters at my hardware store were fairly cheap compared to the ones I am seeing online and the one you shared a link to Reach4. It is not an ace but one of the older independent owned hardware stores that everyone goes to when they cant find it anywhere else. They have a whole isle dedicated well equipment.
Reach4 , you mentioned you have a backwashing iron+H2S filter right after the pressure tank. I am thinking about trying to leave space for a tank between my pressure tank and the softener tank. The reason is in case I needed to add a backwashing filter. I have the 10"x54" tank that is used as a contact tank right now. I called one of the larger water equipment stores and the guy said NO my tank would not work for a backwashing filter tank. He didn't have the specs for my tank and just said flat out, NO. From all the research I have done, I don't see why it would not work? I was think that for now if I need a backflushing filter, I could use a manual valve as they are only around $50 to $75. I would need the tube and media. I will wait and see what the water tests show once I the HP system back up and working with the pressure tank relocated.
Reach4, My water softener control is not programmable for more then every 24 hours. Only the daily time and hardness. It is an echosystem and looks just like a Kenmore I saw in a video except that the Kenmore had the media tank in the brine tank.
Yes it would be great to sample the water right after the filters!
Taylorjm , a couple of days ago I just watched a video where a guy was installing 3/8 valves on the bottom of his filter housings and thought ,that's the way to go! I am thinking about how to design something to mount under the set of filters like a gutter to catch the water and drain it into one place where the bucket cold sit instead of moving the bucket for each filter. i have a piece of 3" pvc that maybe I could cut part of one side off, say 2", then cap each end and install a drain on one end?
Do you have a backwashing filter Taylorjm? I believe you aid that your iron and manganese levels were much higher then mine.
Thanks for the info on the transformers Reach4. Interesting using the GFCI. Can you use just a ground rod for a GFCI ground?
Thanks Charrie
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There are differences in valves. There are cheap knockoffs. There are genuine articles.
I like the DGD cartridge filters. The DGD-5005-20 polypropylene spun 50-5 dual gradient filter, with the outer part being a 50 micron filter, and maybe midway in, the media becomes a 5 micron filter. The DGD-5005-10 is the 10-inch version.
A 20 inch filter has twice the capacity (or half the pressure drop) as 10 inch. But if you are not picking up a lot of solids the 20 inch may be overkill.
Going with the stuff your hardware store sells has a lot of advantage. They stock what you need. You need an o-ring? They have it.
In the Pentek Big Blue, you can replace a 10 inch sump (the blue part) with a 20 inch, or vice versa. However the new sump would typically cost you almost what a whole filter housing would cost.
Opaque sumps are stronger than clear, but I don't remember people posting that their clear sump failed. Clear does seem to have a strong advantage -- you can watch. A well system will normally have less peak pressure than a city water system, because you have that big pressure tank that can suck up thermal expansion of hot water. With city water, the clue that your water heater thermal expansion tank has failed is the T&P valve starts dripping at about 150 PSI.
Manual backwashing valves are way more expensive than that. So the manual valve you are considering... what would that be?
GFCIs do not need a ground. They sense the difference in current between the two wires, and if they differ by more than 5 milliamps, the GFCI trips. The sense method is actually a special transformer. If the two wires each have the same current magnitude, but opposite directions, the magnetic field are net zero.... they cancel each other. The two power wires are the primary, and the sense winding is the secondary, which is monitored by the electronics.
I like the DGD cartridge filters. The DGD-5005-20 polypropylene spun 50-5 dual gradient filter, with the outer part being a 50 micron filter, and maybe midway in, the media becomes a 5 micron filter. The DGD-5005-10 is the 10-inch version.
A 20 inch filter has twice the capacity (or half the pressure drop) as 10 inch. But if you are not picking up a lot of solids the 20 inch may be overkill.
Going with the stuff your hardware store sells has a lot of advantage. They stock what you need. You need an o-ring? They have it.
In the Pentek Big Blue, you can replace a 10 inch sump (the blue part) with a 20 inch, or vice versa. However the new sump would typically cost you almost what a whole filter housing would cost.
Opaque sumps are stronger than clear, but I don't remember people posting that their clear sump failed. Clear does seem to have a strong advantage -- you can watch. A well system will normally have less peak pressure than a city water system, because you have that big pressure tank that can suck up thermal expansion of hot water. With city water, the clue that your water heater thermal expansion tank has failed is the T&P valve starts dripping at about 150 PSI.
Manual backwashing valves are way more expensive than that. So the manual valve you are considering... what would that be?
GFCIs do not need a ground. They sense the difference in current between the two wires, and if they differ by more than 5 milliamps, the GFCI trips. The sense method is actually a special transformer. If the two wires each have the same current magnitude, but opposite directions, the magnetic field are net zero.... they cancel each other. The two power wires are the primary, and the sense winding is the secondary, which is monitored by the electronics.
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here is a great site from UGA where I have to send my test samples off to. The site
Agricultural & Environmental Services Laboratories
Drinking Water
Interpretation and Recommendations
After entering my iron and manganese levels it states: https://aesl.ces.uga.edu/water/recommendations/
"An ion-exchange water softener can be used to remove up to 5.0 ppm combined manganese and iron, but is not normally used unless water softening is also desired. Any oxidized manganese and/or iron (solid particles or precipitate) should be removed by a sand/mechanical filter ahead of the water softener."
I believe in an earlier post Reach4, you said that a water softener should not be used as a filter as this states! I think it did answer my question about how much iron and manganese can a softener remove. I would also guess that the up to 5.0 depends on many different factors such as PH, TDS, hardness, ect. From what I have been reading and think I am learning, injecting the HP into the contact tank should oxidize some of the iron so that the filters will catch most of it before it enters the softener. According to one of the online stores, HP does not work well at converting manganese but will the filters will filter some of it. And the HP will also take care of the sulfur smell. When the HP system was working, it was the hot water that smelled. I read that I need to change the anod rod to a different material, aluminum, I think.
Thanks
Charrie
Agricultural & Environmental Services Laboratories
Drinking Water
Interpretation and Recommendations
After entering my iron and manganese levels it states: https://aesl.ces.uga.edu/water/recommendations/
"An ion-exchange water softener can be used to remove up to 5.0 ppm combined manganese and iron, but is not normally used unless water softening is also desired. Any oxidized manganese and/or iron (solid particles or precipitate) should be removed by a sand/mechanical filter ahead of the water softener."
I believe in an earlier post Reach4, you said that a water softener should not be used as a filter as this states! I think it did answer my question about how much iron and manganese can a softener remove. I would also guess that the up to 5.0 depends on many different factors such as PH, TDS, hardness, ect. From what I have been reading and think I am learning, injecting the HP into the contact tank should oxidize some of the iron so that the filters will catch most of it before it enters the softener. According to one of the online stores, HP does not work well at converting manganese but will the filters will filter some of it. And the HP will also take care of the sulfur smell. When the HP system was working, it was the hot water that smelled. I read that I need to change the anod rod to a different material, aluminum, I think.
Thanks
Charrie
I will check with the hardware store and see what brands they sell and make sure they have spare parts as well as if the 20" sump will fit the 10" sump.
So now to a different thought. So the land management company had a new insulated fiberglass well cover installed about 2 years ago. Once I relocate the pressure tank and all the plumbing involved, there will be a lot of extra space in there.
I have read not to install a filter of any kind between the pump and the pressure tank. You can see the new sediment filter that is on the outlet side of the tank right now. I have only flushed it once in the 2 years its been installed and then it just had a little in the bottom before the filter screen.
My pressure switch for the house is a 30/50 and I am just fine with that. Does the pressures witch have to be located on the pressure tank or could the pressure switch stay up at the wellhead and be plumbed into the piping up there while the pressure tank is down here in the house?
If that would work then I was thinking to use the current sediment filter plus add one of the blue filters there also.
Am also thinking, would 50 psi of pressure build up in the pipe at the well head before the pressure tank had 50 psi? or would it not really matter?
If the above wouldn't work then my next thought is to keep the 30/50 at the pressure tank moved to the house and install a 40/60 at the well head and then the sediment filter and blue filter after that pressure switch. That way the safety cut off would be 60psi if one of the filters got clogged up. During normal operation of the 30/50 switch in the house at the pressure tank, the 40/60 switch contacts would always be in the closed position unless one of the filters at the well head stopped up. At that point the well pump would be shutting off before the pressure reached 50 psi down here and I should notice a change.
I drive by the well every day and stop once a week and raise the lid to check on it.
Thinking those 2 filters would stop most of the smaller particles from entering into the pressure tank which will be in the house now. That would eliminate of of the filters needed in the laundry room. The filter at the well head is easy to change because one can just pour the water on the ground and not worry about the wood floor.
Whats your thoughts? I would really rather have the one single 30/50 at the well head so I wouldn't need to change any wiring in the house, just move the pressure tank.
Thanks
Charrie
So now to a different thought. So the land management company had a new insulated fiberglass well cover installed about 2 years ago. Once I relocate the pressure tank and all the plumbing involved, there will be a lot of extra space in there.
I have read not to install a filter of any kind between the pump and the pressure tank. You can see the new sediment filter that is on the outlet side of the tank right now. I have only flushed it once in the 2 years its been installed and then it just had a little in the bottom before the filter screen.
My pressure switch for the house is a 30/50 and I am just fine with that. Does the pressures witch have to be located on the pressure tank or could the pressure switch stay up at the wellhead and be plumbed into the piping up there while the pressure tank is down here in the house?
If that would work then I was thinking to use the current sediment filter plus add one of the blue filters there also.
Am also thinking, would 50 psi of pressure build up in the pipe at the well head before the pressure tank had 50 psi? or would it not really matter?
If the above wouldn't work then my next thought is to keep the 30/50 at the pressure tank moved to the house and install a 40/60 at the well head and then the sediment filter and blue filter after that pressure switch. That way the safety cut off would be 60psi if one of the filters got clogged up. During normal operation of the 30/50 switch in the house at the pressure tank, the 40/60 switch contacts would always be in the closed position unless one of the filters at the well head stopped up. At that point the well pump would be shutting off before the pressure reached 50 psi down here and I should notice a change.
I drive by the well every day and stop once a week and raise the lid to check on it.
Thinking those 2 filters would stop most of the smaller particles from entering into the pressure tank which will be in the house now. That would eliminate of of the filters needed in the laundry room. The filter at the well head is easy to change because one can just pour the water on the ground and not worry about the wood floor.
Whats your thoughts? I would really rather have the one single 30/50 at the well head so I wouldn't need to change any wiring in the house, just move the pressure tank.
Thanks
Charrie
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
The pressure switch should be located directly where the pressure tank is located so the PS will sense pressure change immediately with no lag.
A reason why the sediment filter at the well head hasn't collected much debris is because your pump has not been drawing up much if any debris nor ferric iron or manganese from the well. While your well water contains significant manganese and iron content, those metals are in ferrous state so they will be fully dissolved in the water and will not be removed with just a simple sediment filter while in their current state.
Once an oxidizer such as HP, chlorine, ozone, pot perm or even air is introduced, then the ferrous metals will begin to be oxidized and converted to a ferric state whereby the solids will begin to precipitate out from the water or maybe filtered out using a simple sediment filter or preferably, back washing filter media.
Unlike a hydro pneumatic tank, your captive pressure tank contains a flexible diaphragm which may be damaged by a chemical oxidizer. In addition, pressure tanks do not typically incorporate any means to flush away significant accumulations of oxidized sediment, and you could experience times when the tank tee and pressure switch nipple become plugged. For these reasons, I would suggest not injecting an oxidizer before the captive pressure tank.
Although your aeration tank was intended to extend the contact time to permit a chemical oxidizer to mix and react with the iron and manganese to convert them to a ferric state, upon initial review of your photo, the current tank does not appear to incorporate any method to easily flush out sediment that will accumulate from oxidizing manganese, iron and H2S.
To continue to use your current HP pump only while the well pump is active, you may want to consider removing your current pressure tank and install Valveman's PK1A Cycle Stop Valve kit.
The PK1A includes a 4.5 gallon pressure tank which will hold only about 1-gallon water. Running any faucet will cause that 1-gallon to be rapidly drawn down to cause the well pump to become activated. Because the CSV will only allow the exact amount of water from the pump as is being utilized, the pump will continue to operate consistently for the entire time water continues to be drawn.
The pressure delivered to faucets & appliances will remain constant, typically 40 psi when using a 30-50 psi pressure switch, or 50 psi when using a 40-60 psi PS. The pressure tank will then contain about 0.5 gallons water while the pump is operating and supplying that constant 40 or 50 psi to the home.
Once no further water is needed, the CSV will allow ~1 GPM to flow past to allow the pressure tank to continue to fill the remaining 0.5 gallons until the PS cut-out pressure has been achieved.
Because the pressure tank can only contain ~1-gallon liquid, the well pump and HP pump will soon be activated once any faucet is opened or a toilet is flushed The HP pump will also continue to run for only 30-seconds once no further water is being used, just for the time while the well pump is filling the remaining 0.5 gallons into the pressure tank.
CSV PK1A Sidekick package
A reason why the sediment filter at the well head hasn't collected much debris is because your pump has not been drawing up much if any debris nor ferric iron or manganese from the well. While your well water contains significant manganese and iron content, those metals are in ferrous state so they will be fully dissolved in the water and will not be removed with just a simple sediment filter while in their current state.
Once an oxidizer such as HP, chlorine, ozone, pot perm or even air is introduced, then the ferrous metals will begin to be oxidized and converted to a ferric state whereby the solids will begin to precipitate out from the water or maybe filtered out using a simple sediment filter or preferably, back washing filter media.
Unlike a hydro pneumatic tank, your captive pressure tank contains a flexible diaphragm which may be damaged by a chemical oxidizer. In addition, pressure tanks do not typically incorporate any means to flush away significant accumulations of oxidized sediment, and you could experience times when the tank tee and pressure switch nipple become plugged. For these reasons, I would suggest not injecting an oxidizer before the captive pressure tank.
Although your aeration tank was intended to extend the contact time to permit a chemical oxidizer to mix and react with the iron and manganese to convert them to a ferric state, upon initial review of your photo, the current tank does not appear to incorporate any method to easily flush out sediment that will accumulate from oxidizing manganese, iron and H2S.
To continue to use your current HP pump only while the well pump is active, you may want to consider removing your current pressure tank and install Valveman's PK1A Cycle Stop Valve kit.
The PK1A includes a 4.5 gallon pressure tank which will hold only about 1-gallon water. Running any faucet will cause that 1-gallon to be rapidly drawn down to cause the well pump to become activated. Because the CSV will only allow the exact amount of water from the pump as is being utilized, the pump will continue to operate consistently for the entire time water continues to be drawn.
The pressure delivered to faucets & appliances will remain constant, typically 40 psi when using a 30-50 psi pressure switch, or 50 psi when using a 40-60 psi PS. The pressure tank will then contain about 0.5 gallons water while the pump is operating and supplying that constant 40 or 50 psi to the home.
Once no further water is needed, the CSV will allow ~1 GPM to flow past to allow the pressure tank to continue to fill the remaining 0.5 gallons until the PS cut-out pressure has been achieved.
Because the pressure tank can only contain ~1-gallon liquid, the well pump and HP pump will soon be activated once any faucet is opened or a toilet is flushed The HP pump will also continue to run for only 30-seconds once no further water is being used, just for the time while the well pump is filling the remaining 0.5 gallons into the pressure tank.
CSV PK1A Sidekick package
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I was out of town and just got back.
Thanks for the reply Bannerman!
Well it looks like there is a difference of opinion on what I need to do and how to set it up.
According to Amtrol, the WX202 tank uses a Diaphragm: Heavy Duty Butyl and has an antimicrobial lining. One web site siad the lining is polypropylene. I tried looking up butyl, polypropylene, butyl rubber, and H202 compatibility. It appears that polypropylene does pretty good with higher concentrations of H202 while Butyl does not at 90%. Some other charts showed that Butyl and H202 does just fine but the charts did state the % of h202. So i am still searching that when I have time. Some materials are not compatible even as low as 3%
So at this time in life I find myself living on a fixed budget but have been saving money to be able to resolved this issue so I can stop buying $5 municipal sourced packs of bottled water with microplastics floating in it!
I know I am going to need at least 3 filters, I think. If they have to be changed to often then perhaps a backwashig filter?
I really can t start moving or installing anything until i know exactly what I need to do..
BTW there is a store near by that sells random items like new power tools, surplus items perhaps bought at auctions and some used items. I was looking through their building and came across 2 black poly spun tanks with caps on the tops and they appeared to be new. One looked like perhaps a 13"x54" for $50 and another tank a little smaller then my current softener tank for $25.
Is there any chance that I might need one of those tanks and if so, what should I look for?
It has been mentioned more then once that my contact tank does not have a easy way to flush out sediment that is accumulating. Would it be possible for me to add a manual backwash valve to that tank similar to this one.
https://www.aquascience.net/manual-...W_Nm53QY88wUTqW48c0Wd1CCluox8VKRoCJWcQAvD_BwE
or
www.cleanwaterstore.com
Thanks
Charrie
I am tossing all of this new information around. I am still going to need to shock the well and according to Valveman, remove the safety chain. That will require pulling the pump and I don't know what I will have to replace at that time. I have pulled on that chain and there is absolutely no slack or give. I would think that a rope would have a little stretch in it and this does not.
Oh, peroxide test strips, the ones I hav ebeen seeing start at 0, 3, 5, 10 and on up. Any recommendations on which ones to buy?
Thanks for the reply Bannerman!
Well it looks like there is a difference of opinion on what I need to do and how to set it up.
According to Amtrol, the WX202 tank uses a Diaphragm: Heavy Duty Butyl and has an antimicrobial lining. One web site siad the lining is polypropylene. I tried looking up butyl, polypropylene, butyl rubber, and H202 compatibility. It appears that polypropylene does pretty good with higher concentrations of H202 while Butyl does not at 90%. Some other charts showed that Butyl and H202 does just fine but the charts did state the % of h202. So i am still searching that when I have time. Some materials are not compatible even as low as 3%
So at this time in life I find myself living on a fixed budget but have been saving money to be able to resolved this issue so I can stop buying $5 municipal sourced packs of bottled water with microplastics floating in it!
I know I am going to need at least 3 filters, I think. If they have to be changed to often then perhaps a backwashig filter?
I really can t start moving or installing anything until i know exactly what I need to do..
BTW there is a store near by that sells random items like new power tools, surplus items perhaps bought at auctions and some used items. I was looking through their building and came across 2 black poly spun tanks with caps on the tops and they appeared to be new. One looked like perhaps a 13"x54" for $50 and another tank a little smaller then my current softener tank for $25.
Is there any chance that I might need one of those tanks and if so, what should I look for?
It has been mentioned more then once that my contact tank does not have a easy way to flush out sediment that is accumulating. Would it be possible for me to add a manual backwash valve to that tank similar to this one.
https://www.aquascience.net/manual-...W_Nm53QY88wUTqW48c0Wd1CCluox8VKRoCJWcQAvD_BwE
or
Manual Backwash Ceramic Disc Control Valve 1" Metal Handle
Check out the deal on Manual Backwash Ceramic Disc Control Valve 1" Metal Handle at Clean Water Store
Thanks
Charrie
I am tossing all of this new information around. I am still going to need to shock the well and according to Valveman, remove the safety chain. That will require pulling the pump and I don't know what I will have to replace at that time. I have pulled on that chain and there is absolutely no slack or give. I would think that a rope would have a little stretch in it and this does not.
Oh, peroxide test strips, the ones I hav ebeen seeing start at 0, 3, 5, 10 and on up. Any recommendations on which ones to buy?
Taylorjm
Active Member
I wouldn't worry about your pressure tank interaction with the peroxide. The levels of peroxide are nowhere near 3% number you quoted. Your talking about 0.5ppm. That's not going to affect your diaphragm. As for it clogging up, your iron was at 0.75 if I remember correctly. You don't have enough to worry about clogging anything at that rate. I don't know anything about having the pressure switch at the well and the tank farther away. I know several people that have wells with the same setup. With the pressure switch right on the well head and the pressure tank in the house. So I don't know if there's a lag time. Here are the test strips I used. I have mine set a little more than the <0.5 setting. Anything over 2ppm and you can taste it. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005XTZMWY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1I was out of town and just got back.
Thanks for the reply Bannerman!
Well it looks like there is a difference of opinion on what I need to do and how to set it up.
According to Amtrol, the WX202 tank uses a Diaphragm: Heavy Duty Butyl and has an antimicrobial lining. One web site siad the lining is polypropylene. I tried looking up butyl, polypropylene, butyl rubber, and H202 compatibility. It appears that polypropylene does pretty good with higher concentrations of H202 while Butyl does not at 90%. Some other charts showed that Butyl and H202 does just fine but the charts did state the % of h202. So i am still searching that when I have time. Some materials are not compatible even as low as 3%
So at this time in life I find myself living on a fixed budget but have been saving money to be able to resolved this issue so I can stop buying $5 municipal sourced packs of bottled water with microplastics floating in it!
I know I am going to need at least 3 filters, I think. If they have to be changed to often then perhaps a backwashig filter?
I really can t start moving or installing anything until i know exactly what I need to do..
BTW there is a store near by that sells random items like new power tools, surplus items perhaps bought at auctions and some used items. I was looking through their building and came across 2 black poly spun tanks with caps on the tops and they appeared to be new. One looked like perhaps a 13"x54" for $50 and another tank a little smaller then my current softener tank for $25.
Is there any chance that I might need one of those tanks and if so, what should I look for?
It has been mentioned more then once that my contact tank does not have a easy way to flush out sediment that is accumulating. Would it be possible for me to add a manual backwash valve to that tank similar to this one.
https://www.aquascience.net/manual-...W_Nm53QY88wUTqW48c0Wd1CCluox8VKRoCJWcQAvD_BwE
or
Manual Backwash Ceramic Disc Control Valve 1" Metal Handle
Check out the deal on Manual Backwash Ceramic Disc Control Valve 1" Metal Handle at Clean Water Store
Thanks
Charrie
I am tossing all of this new information around. I am still going to need to shock the well and according to Valveman, remove the safety chain. That will require pulling the pump and I don't know what I will have to replace at that time. I have pulled on that chain and there is absolutely no slack or give. I would think that a rope would have a little stretch in it and this does not.
Oh, peroxide test strips, the ones I hav ebeen seeing start at 0, 3, 5, 10 and on up. Any recommendations on which ones to buy?
Thanks for the replies!
So I am thinking. At this time the CSV is not doable.
I know we talked about moving the pressure tank down to the house. That is going to require running some burial cable from the outside disconnect to the inside of the house to connect the pressure switch. I believe there is room inside the well cover for a control transformer, 2.5 gallon tank, and the Steiner pump. What is the issue with leaving the pressure tank at the well and moving the H202 system to the well?
We talked about filters. I believe the recommendation is a 20" and a 10" filter. It would get awful crowded under the well cover so I guess the filters would need to be in the laundry room with the water softener. I believe it was mentioned that I can do away with the contact tank? Doing away with the contact tank and H202 tank would leave plenty of room to mount the filters.
What is the recommendation on filters? Should the 20" be first followed by a 10" finer filter with both tied in on the supply line feeding directly into the water softener? what micron filters should I use?
Also as to helping the pump last longer, would adding a pressure regulator before the filters help? Was thinking that my pressure switch is a 30/50. If I added a pressure regulator and set it to say, 40 PSI, wouldn't that cut down some on the cycles just a little? Also since i have polybutylene at the moment, it would lower the pressure on it also.
Thanks
Charrie
PS What pipe would you guys use doing this job? Eventually I will be re-plumbing my house and am thinking about what tools to buy. There seems to be some issues these days with some of the PEX failing prematurely from what I have read.
So I am thinking. At this time the CSV is not doable.
I know we talked about moving the pressure tank down to the house. That is going to require running some burial cable from the outside disconnect to the inside of the house to connect the pressure switch. I believe there is room inside the well cover for a control transformer, 2.5 gallon tank, and the Steiner pump. What is the issue with leaving the pressure tank at the well and moving the H202 system to the well?
We talked about filters. I believe the recommendation is a 20" and a 10" filter. It would get awful crowded under the well cover so I guess the filters would need to be in the laundry room with the water softener. I believe it was mentioned that I can do away with the contact tank? Doing away with the contact tank and H202 tank would leave plenty of room to mount the filters.
What is the recommendation on filters? Should the 20" be first followed by a 10" finer filter with both tied in on the supply line feeding directly into the water softener? what micron filters should I use?
Also as to helping the pump last longer, would adding a pressure regulator before the filters help? Was thinking that my pressure switch is a 30/50. If I added a pressure regulator and set it to say, 40 PSI, wouldn't that cut down some on the cycles just a little? Also since i have polybutylene at the moment, it would lower the pressure on it also.
Thanks
Charrie
PS What pipe would you guys use doing this job? Eventually I will be re-plumbing my house and am thinking about what tools to buy. There seems to be some issues these days with some of the PEX failing prematurely from what I have read.
Taylorjm
Active Member
Sure you can move the peroxide pump to the outside well cover. For the filters, depends on your flow. The 20x4.5 filters will have better flow rates and the filters will last longer because they are larger. I would go with a sediment filter before the softener and another carbon filter after the softener to help with the taste. I am using a 25/5 micron sediment filter. Which means the outside filters 25 microns and gradually gets smaller to the inside that's 5 microns. Supposedly that keeps the filters from clogging up quickly. Here are the filters that I'm using. They are about $25 each. You don't use much water if I remember correctly so the filters should last a long time. I would guess on 6 months with your water usage but that's just a guess.
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
A CSV is actually a pressure regulator that regulates the pressure directly from the pump. Since the CSV will cause the pump to only deliver the exact volume of water that is actually being consumed, that will prevent the pump from cycling.
Locating a pressure regulator further downstream will regulate the pressure to the filters and fixtures that are located past the PR, but since the pressure tank and pressure switch will be located before the regulator, the pump will continue to cycle since the pump will continue to fill the pressure tank at the maximum flow rate the pump is capable of delivering.
A CSV maybe obtained for less cost if you wish to continue using your existing pressure tank and pressure switch. Because a CSV will only regulate the pressure from the pump, your exsisting larger pressure tank will result in a greater quantity of water needing to be utilized before the pump to become activated to cause the full benefit of a CSV to come into effect.
Bannerman, Where exactly does the CSV need to mount if I use just the valve? And which valve do i need? Am thinking to leave room to add it later.
Reach4 I was thinking about using a control transformer but believe it would take a 500VA at minimum to tun the 120v motor that pulls 1.7A. The cheapest I found was around $200 BUT then I came across Steeners web site and they sell a 220V "motor service kit" for just over $112! So I should be able to change out the motor and run it at the well without a transformer.
www.stennerpumpparts.com
Taylorjm , you might be interested in that motor info also in case yours was to go out one day.
Okay, now to filters again. I guess all companies call their filter housings "Big Blue". Looking at reviews, the pentair are the same as pentek and seem to have the highest reviews. Years ago they would have sold the filter housing, wrench, and mounting bracket all together but that seems to be different today! $73 on sale but $44 for the bracket and wrench kit!
www.freshwatersystems.com
So one 20" big blue housing between the supply line and water softener and then a 10" filter after the softener? Both using the 4.5" diameter filters?
Do you think PVC is okay to use to plumb everything in with?
What do you all think about the 220v motor kit?
I have a Square D disconnect with a double pole 20/30 piggyback breaker in it that I used when I installed a small heater in the old well cover when we moved here. That should work for the well pump and injection pump.
Speaking of injection pump Taylorjm , is there a reason that you have the pump pointed downwards in your setup? I also guess that I should mount the pump higher then the H202 storage tank? Trying to figure out how to fit everything under the well cover.
Thanks
Charrie
Reach4 I was thinking about using a control transformer but believe it would take a 500VA at minimum to tun the 120v motor that pulls 1.7A. The cheapest I found was around $200 BUT then I came across Steeners web site and they sell a 220V "motor service kit" for just over $112! So I should be able to change out the motor and run it at the well without a transformer.
Stenner Classic Motor Service Kit - 220V 60Hz
Stenner Classic Motor Service Kit. The modular design of the Stenner Classic Series pumps makes replacing components quick and easy. This motor service kit is a genuine Stenner service kit.
Taylorjm , you might be interested in that motor info also in case yours was to go out one day.
Okay, now to filters again. I guess all companies call their filter housings "Big Blue". Looking at reviews, the pentair are the same as pentek and seem to have the highest reviews. Years ago they would have sold the filter housing, wrench, and mounting bracket all together but that seems to be different today! $73 on sale but $44 for the bracket and wrench kit!
Pentek 20
Pentek 20" Big Blue Filter Housings are large capacity housings constructed out of durable polypropylene. All housings include a 3/8" drain valve and can be used in high flow and heavy sediment applications. Pentek 20" BB Housings utilize 4-1/2" diameter filter cartridges and have temperature...
www.freshwatersystems.com
So one 20" big blue housing between the supply line and water softener and then a 10" filter after the softener? Both using the 4.5" diameter filters?
Do you think PVC is okay to use to plumb everything in with?
What do you all think about the 220v motor kit?
I have a Square D disconnect with a double pole 20/30 piggyback breaker in it that I used when I installed a small heater in the old well cover when we moved here. That should work for the well pump and injection pump.
Speaking of injection pump Taylorjm , is there a reason that you have the pump pointed downwards in your setup? I also guess that I should mount the pump higher then the H202 storage tank? Trying to figure out how to fit everything under the well cover.
Thanks
Charrie
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
Because a CSV regulates the output from the pump, it is to be the 1st device directly after the pump. While many locate a CSV within their home's basement which maybe some distance away from the well head, for your application, the CSV maybe placed within your enclosure, with the pressure tank & pressure switch plumbed downstream of the CSV.
The CSV device is quite small and doesn't require much space. Although your existing large pressure tank maybe utilized with a CSV, a large pressure tank is not needed and maybe replaced with a tiny 4.5 gallon tank which will actually improve how the system will operate.
The link below is to an interactive demonstration which should assist with understanding the benefits of using a CSV.
CSV Animation
You have done good study.
Here are my rough Peroxide (H2O2) measurement product notes. I have not checked these links lately, and I have used none of the products:
-----------------------------------------
For water treatment, H2O2 sensitive test strips
Sensafe Low Range Peroxide Check
https://sensafe.com/visual-tests/?_bc_fsnf=1&Parameter=Peroxide
https://sensafe.com/waterworks-peroxide-check-lr/ stand alone....
https://sensafe.com/exact-strip-micro-hydrogen-peroxide-low-range/
uses a device to make the readings more accurate. The photometer is expensive.
I am not sure what photometer models it takes. 525nm I think eXact® EZ Photometer is one of them.
sensafe.com
eXact® EZ Photometer plus calibration stick... Is eXact® EZ Photometer with some strips (not H2O2 included).
sensafe.com
https://sensafe.com/exact-idip/ seems cheapest...
eXact® EZ Photometer has auto-zero.
https://sensafe.com/content/486205.pdf is manual.
https://sensafe.com/meters-page/?sort=featured&_bc_fsnf=1&Parameter=Peroxide (best link )
www.zoro.com
www.zoro.com
https://www.zoro.com/search?q=peroxide test (comes up with other stuff)
https://www.hach.com/hydrogen-peroxide-test-kit-model-hyp-1/product?id=7640218476
--------------------------------------------
PVC is good for outside of the house, but like most plastics, it should be protected from long term UV. Paint can do that, and certainly your cover can do that.
A working rating of only 50 psi? Odd.
How will you sanitize your well and plumbing? With a well seal, rather than a well cap, there is not always an easy way to inject sanitizing solution.
Here are my rough Peroxide (H2O2) measurement product notes. I have not checked these links lately, and I have used none of the products:
-----------------------------------------
For water treatment, H2O2 sensitive test strips
Sensafe Low Range Peroxide Check
https://sensafe.com/visual-tests/?_bc_fsnf=1&Parameter=Peroxide
https://sensafe.com/waterworks-peroxide-check-lr/ stand alone....
https://sensafe.com/exact-strip-micro-hydrogen-peroxide-low-range/
uses a device to make the readings more accurate. The photometer is expensive.
I am not sure what photometer models it takes. 525nm I think eXact® EZ Photometer is one of them.
Chlorine + eXact® EZ Photometer Starter Kit
Test your water with the Chlorine+ eXact EZ Starter Kit
sensafe.com
Water Quality Experts | Industrial Test Systems
ITS is a leading American manufacturer of instruments and chemistries designed to test water quality parameters.
sensafe.com
eXact® EZ Photometer has auto-zero.
https://sensafe.com/content/486205.pdf is manual.
https://sensafe.com/meters-page/?sort=featured&_bc_fsnf=1&Parameter=Peroxide (best link )
Lamotte Test Strip, Hydrogen Peroxide, PK25 2984 | Zoro
Order Lamotte Test Strip, Hydrogen Peroxide, PK25, 2984 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.
www.zoro.com
Industrial Test Systems Test Strips, Peroxide, 0-4ppm, PK50 481015 | Zoro
Order Industrial Test Systems Test Strips, Peroxide, 0-4ppm, PK50, 481015 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.
www.zoro.com
https://www.hach.com/hydrogen-peroxide-test-kit-model-hyp-1/product?id=7640218476
--------------------------------------------
PVC is good for outside of the house, but like most plastics, it should be protected from long term UV. Paint can do that, and certainly your cover can do that.
A working rating of only 50 psi? Odd.
How will you sanitize your well and plumbing? With a well seal, rather than a well cap, there is not always an easy way to inject sanitizing solution.
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Thanks for the animation Bannerman, it is well done! I agree there should be plenty of space for the valve and if the pressure tank were also replaced, that would solve my any space issues I might have with the small cover.
Thanks for the links Reach4
I will be using the test strips, probably the low range ones. It may also require a higher range kit in case the PPM happened to be higher then the low range test strips would show. I would love to have one of the master Hach test kits but they are a bit out of my range at the moment. I would think that for a well company they would be great as you would be able to make your money back. I think after I get all of the work done, I will be having a fairly comprehensive water sample test done. After that I will start saving up for a good home test kit as in time it would pay for itself.
I would guess that as with most chemicals, there is an expiration date on some of the chemicals in a good Hach master kit or any kit for that matter. Even if one had to replace some of th etests every couple of years, it still might be cheaper then sending off water samples?
As to the 50 PSI. Not sure which site I read that on but here are a couple of examples.
Boshart industries
They show a max PSI reting of 125 PSI but then state:
Description • If the working pressure is consistently over 60 PSI a pressure regulator valve is recommended to extend the life span of the bowl • Head is polypropylene, clear bowl is styrene-acrylonitrile
Also from
Bluonics
Maximum operating pressure rating of 80 psi, if you suspect that your water pressure will at any time exceed 60 psi, a pressure regulator must be installed before the filter housing and be set at 50 psi or less.
www.bluonics.com
AH, sanitizing the well! That is a whole different issue. According to Valveman, If I remember correctly, I should not put any bleach in the well with that safety chain inside the well. I believe he mentioned it will rust and raise the iron levels as well as may accelerate rusting and cause the chain to rust into. That's going from memory. i have lost a couple of posts once leaving the page for a few minutes!
Following that recommendation, I need to pull the pump and remove the chain. You know much better then I what kind of issues I can run into doing that. The only history I know about the well is it was drilled in the late 90's or right around 2000. From the amount of trash around the well when we bought the land, the well had been worked on several times. The local driller said that they never used 3/4 drop pipe.
If I pull the pump, would you recommend leaving the 3/4 drop pipe? If it has a PVC barb fitting at the pump, then I will have to fix that. Then there is the wire and how many splices? So I am not sure what to do other then just pull it and go from there. Then there are the rusted hose clamps.
Is there a chance of it being as simple as just pulling the pump, removing the chain, and dropping the pump back in?
I am not sure what kind of wire that is going down in the casing. it is 10/2 with a ground and somewhat like direct burial cable.
I also need to install an outside "Spigot" spicket! so I can flush some of the chlorine out of the 300' of pipe underground. When we replaced a 4' culvert pipe in the driveway, i had to cut the 3/4 pvc supply line from the well. it was amazingly fairly clean inisde with just a tint of reddish color'
Thanks
Charrie.
Thanks for the links Reach4
I will be using the test strips, probably the low range ones. It may also require a higher range kit in case the PPM happened to be higher then the low range test strips would show. I would love to have one of the master Hach test kits but they are a bit out of my range at the moment. I would think that for a well company they would be great as you would be able to make your money back. I think after I get all of the work done, I will be having a fairly comprehensive water sample test done. After that I will start saving up for a good home test kit as in time it would pay for itself.
I would guess that as with most chemicals, there is an expiration date on some of the chemicals in a good Hach master kit or any kit for that matter. Even if one had to replace some of th etests every couple of years, it still might be cheaper then sending off water samples?
As to the 50 PSI. Not sure which site I read that on but here are a couple of examples.
Boshart industries
They show a max PSI reting of 125 PSI but then state:
Description • If the working pressure is consistently over 60 PSI a pressure regulator valve is recommended to extend the life span of the bowl • Head is polypropylene, clear bowl is styrene-acrylonitrile
Also from
Bluonics
Maximum operating pressure rating of 80 psi, if you suspect that your water pressure will at any time exceed 60 psi, a pressure regulator must be installed before the filter housing and be set at 50 psi or less.
Whole House Big Blue Clear Blue Transparent Water Filter Housing with 1
COMPLETE: 1 Complete 10 inch big clear housing, 1"NPT inlet/outlet, with plastic wrench, 4 x screws, and metal bracket POWERFUL: 1" MNTP Inlet / Outlet, 10”x4.5” Filter Cartridges has minimum impact on water flow. With a large capacity housing it can be used for high flow applications such as...
www.bluonics.com
AH, sanitizing the well! That is a whole different issue. According to Valveman, If I remember correctly, I should not put any bleach in the well with that safety chain inside the well. I believe he mentioned it will rust and raise the iron levels as well as may accelerate rusting and cause the chain to rust into. That's going from memory. i have lost a couple of posts once leaving the page for a few minutes!
Following that recommendation, I need to pull the pump and remove the chain. You know much better then I what kind of issues I can run into doing that. The only history I know about the well is it was drilled in the late 90's or right around 2000. From the amount of trash around the well when we bought the land, the well had been worked on several times. The local driller said that they never used 3/4 drop pipe.
If I pull the pump, would you recommend leaving the 3/4 drop pipe? If it has a PVC barb fitting at the pump, then I will have to fix that. Then there is the wire and how many splices? So I am not sure what to do other then just pull it and go from there. Then there are the rusted hose clamps.
Is there a chance of it being as simple as just pulling the pump, removing the chain, and dropping the pump back in?
I am not sure what kind of wire that is going down in the casing. it is 10/2 with a ground and somewhat like direct burial cable.
I also need to install an outside "Spigot" spicket! so I can flush some of the chlorine out of the 300' of pipe underground. When we replaced a 4' culvert pipe in the driveway, i had to cut the 3/4 pvc supply line from the well. it was amazingly fairly clean inisde with just a tint of reddish color'
Thanks
Charrie.
In a pinch, you could dilute your sample with distilled water, and test that with a lower range test.
You know you have a PVC casing. The OD is what-- 5.5, which would indicate 5 inch PVC casing, or 4.5 , which would indicate 4 inch PVC casing
You need a drain at the pressure tank anyway, because that is how you flush sediment from the pressure tank.
Is that 300 ft of pipe you mention horizontal (roughly)? I presume so. I forget how far down your pump is located.
What causes you to suspect you have 3/4 inch drop pipe? You may have said, but I forgot.
I have a steel casing, and put bleach+vinegar down there.
You know you have a PVC casing. The OD is what-- 5.5, which would indicate 5 inch PVC casing, or 4.5 , which would indicate 4 inch PVC casing
You need a drain at the pressure tank anyway, because that is how you flush sediment from the pressure tank.
Is that 300 ft of pipe you mention horizontal (roughly)? I presume so. I forget how far down your pump is located.
What causes you to suspect you have 3/4 inch drop pipe? You may have said, but I forgot.
I have a steel casing, and put bleach+vinegar down there.
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
With regard to filter sump housings, as the clear versions are manufactured using a styrene component which is brittle and more reactive to UV, the clear versions are more prone to failure compared to the opaque versions.
Here are links to two prior threads where Ditttohead discussed this:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....any-6-000-what-to-do.90749/page-2#post-652390
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-5600sxt-not-softening-water.64745/#post-479746
Here are links to two prior threads where Ditttohead discussed this:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....any-6-000-what-to-do.90749/page-2#post-652390
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-5600sxt-not-softening-water.64745/#post-479746
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styrene-acrylonitrile (SAN) is better than the polystyrene we have all come to avoid.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/styrene-acrylonitrile-copolymer says
12.7 Styrene–Acrylonitrile Copolymers
SAN copolymers (∼20–30% acrylonitrile content) are a relatively expensive and specialized engineering plastic, based on styrene. Because of the polar nature of the acrylonitrile molecule, these copolymers have better resistance to hydrocarbons, oils, and greases than PS. They also have a higher softening point, a much better resistance to stress cracking and crazing, and an enhanced impact strength, and yet retain the transparency of the homopolymer. The higher the acrylonitrile content, the greater the toughness and chemical resistance, but the greater the difficulty in molding, and the greater the risk of yellowness. Typical SANs have a water absorption equivalent to poly(methyl methacrylate); about 10 times that of PS but about one-tenth that of cellulose acetate.
The important features of rigidity and transparency make SAN competitive with PS, cellulose acetate, and poly(methyl methacrylate) for a number of applications. In general, the copolymer is cheaper than poly(methyl methacrylate) and cellulose acetate, tougher than poly(methyl methacrylate) and PS, and superior in chemical and most physical properties to PS and cellulose acetate. It does not have such a high transparency as poly(methyl methacrylate). As a result of these considerations, the SAN copolymers have found applications for dials, knobs, and covers for domestic appliances, electrical and car equipment, for picnicware and housewares, and a number of other industrial and domestic applications with requirements somewhat more stringent than can be met by GP–HI PS. SAN is also used for some pharmaceutical and cosmetic packaging.
-----------------------------------------------------
The opaque polypropylene Pentek housings will be stronger, but the clear SAN is probably pretty decent.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/styrene-acrylonitrile-copolymer says
12.7 Styrene–Acrylonitrile Copolymers
SAN copolymers (∼20–30% acrylonitrile content) are a relatively expensive and specialized engineering plastic, based on styrene. Because of the polar nature of the acrylonitrile molecule, these copolymers have better resistance to hydrocarbons, oils, and greases than PS. They also have a higher softening point, a much better resistance to stress cracking and crazing, and an enhanced impact strength, and yet retain the transparency of the homopolymer. The higher the acrylonitrile content, the greater the toughness and chemical resistance, but the greater the difficulty in molding, and the greater the risk of yellowness. Typical SANs have a water absorption equivalent to poly(methyl methacrylate); about 10 times that of PS but about one-tenth that of cellulose acetate.
The important features of rigidity and transparency make SAN competitive with PS, cellulose acetate, and poly(methyl methacrylate) for a number of applications. In general, the copolymer is cheaper than poly(methyl methacrylate) and cellulose acetate, tougher than poly(methyl methacrylate) and PS, and superior in chemical and most physical properties to PS and cellulose acetate. It does not have such a high transparency as poly(methyl methacrylate). As a result of these considerations, the SAN copolymers have found applications for dials, knobs, and covers for domestic appliances, electrical and car equipment, for picnicware and housewares, and a number of other industrial and domestic applications with requirements somewhat more stringent than can be met by GP–HI PS. SAN is also used for some pharmaceutical and cosmetic packaging.
-----------------------------------------------------
The opaque polypropylene Pentek housings will be stronger, but the clear SAN is probably pretty decent.
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