Aspiring Plumbing Apprentice Indiana

[Mitch Sutherland]

Hello! I am looking to join the trade! I am 27, and currently work in physical therapy. I make about $27 an hour. However I have a mechanical mind and feel I would enjoy the plumbing environment.

I am thinking about transitioning into becoming a plumbing apprentice. I was going to go union and start out at $18 for a first year, and then slowly get to $29 as a fifth year until I sit for a journeyman test. Once I am a journeyman I was told I would receive just under $39 an hour. I financially could handle the cut for a couple years however just want to know if union is the way to go? Is that pay scale accurate? Would I always be sent away(within the district) or could I find a daily local union job? Is work dependable or am I often off work due to lack of union work?

Money is not my main motivation but I do want to do well for myself, and have a family to feed.

 

[Sylvan]

When I came out of the USN I joined a union for a 5 year (10,000 hrs) apprenticeship and 744 hours of class room studies code, theory etc

At that time I was paid $2.65 PER HR and 2nd year $3.15 per hr

I was told what you put into plumbing you get out. My top employee came to America 7 years ago and is working for me for 4 years (NON Union) and his salary was $125 per hr based on a 40 hr work week

Now I gave him 49% of my company so he can run the everyday operations and I work only when I want to

If you really keep abreast of code changes , learn most of the aspects of being a "plumber" such as brazing medical gas piping and welding and sewer and drain cleaning and heating

Now that I am 73 when I work I usually make $350 per hr sometimes more and as an expert witness my minimum charge is $1,400 based on 2 hours plus traveling and expenses

If I have to go to court or a deposition it is $2,800 BUT usually I charge more

As a master plumber I did have 18 employees paying an average of @25.00 per hr and billing out $125 per hr plus 40% mark up on materials

A decent jobbing mechanic can allow the owner to bill 12 or more hours in an 8 hr day

For example a toilet stoppage takes an average of 15 minutes or less to clear BUT the min service call was $125 plus tax so being in NY most of the service calls are close

My 1995 GMV van when I gave it away this year had 28,000 miles on it

My 2002 Ford 350 has less then 20,000 miles

I never heard of a plumber on welfare and having a decent trade I know I can work just about any where

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Sylvan]

By the way after I took all the classes the united association of plumbers and steam fitters offered I Quit and passed my master plumbers exams .

That is where the real money comes in .

Think about it If I was paying a 24 year old foreign born guy $5,000 a week think how much I made on him

He now buys a house a year and owns three multi family houses for added income

 

[Jeff H Young]

I could argue this on either side either union or non union. but the one guy working sylvans company must be an exception and an awsome hand . dont guess he is planning on going thru an apprenticeship. there are union success storys as well but somewhat differant.
I made good money union and non union I did like being non union self employed best , but got a lot out of working on some awsome projects and with good hands union as well, neither is wrong its whats right for you. people get a bad taste that have a bad experiance or just cant make it in one aspect or another bad mouthing union or bad mouthing all the non union . I can say as an apprentice going union youll lear a lot going non union you might or might not you might not even get any training at the wrong job but its a long commitment and a slow pace working union quite strict you wont be missing any days of school no matter what. So if your a free spirit or have trouble having a journeyman telling you exactly what to do it might be hard. that being said its a hell of an accomplishment.

 

[Mitch Sutherland]

Thank you everyone who has replied! Is it Possible to get a Monday through Friday local job with the union once you become a journeyman? Or am I always liable to get sent to a different city within the union’s district?

 

[Jeff H Young]

Unlikely but it happens that a guy works many years or entire career with a single company. some guys go to work for a huge company that uses UA workers like disney land. it is so varied but the union dosent send a journeyman away from his local however if you arent working you may choose to go on road . a small percentage prefer travel getting a per deium and many hours of overtime like 6 or 7 10s or 12 hour days bank up money fast but its not all glory. Mostly travel work is pipefitting as opposed to plumbing. Pipefitting or welding an exciting related field as well . there is so much going on but I love these trades not everyone does but I do . hopefully some other view points come up Terry been doing this a long time I hope he chimes in!

 

[Mitch Sutherland]

So would it be best to try the RotoRooting apprentice method? Or a smaller company apprentice and just pay for the schooling myself? I would like to potentially do residential service work and my own business. Not only commercial which is what union is from my understanding.

 

[Sylvan]

The united association of plumbers and steam fitters has an amazing apprenticeship program BUT once you get all their training it is time to get the heck out and start your own company to make the big bucks people joke about with plumbers

If you want hospitalization , paid holidays and sick days and retirement either join one of the services such as the Navy or join a union

But if you have faith in your own ability to be the master of your fate grab the education and use it to make an amazing living

The Albanian who is now my partner came to America 7 years ago learned to speak English and asfter he started working for me 4 years ago I told him he has to get formal education not just OJT

He went to classes on the week ends and at night passed his back flow testers course, took several classes that cost him a few grand for gas service installations and testing .

He worked 7 days a week over 12 hours in nursing homes and new construction .

It was a lot cheaper to pay him $5,000 a week salary which worked out to $125 per hr but he did work a lot more hours so being made a foreman then a partner I did not have to worry about FLSA as he is considered management not rank and file

If a contractor can find someone who is more productive then 3 American born people it is cheaper to have one instead of 3

We reduced my original workforce from 18 employees to 4 and pay them double what the others made and everyone of them will work week ends or nights and never complain

We both 3 new vans which we allow them to take home so when a call comes in they can take care of it

Their incentive is any call after 4 PM is overtime same with week end work .

So for example we charge $400 per hr labor the employee gets $200 per hr and we get the 40% mark up on the materials and still make money on the employee

I would never expect anyone to give yup their week ends or evenings without being properly compensated and by paying way above union scale I know these guys are not only productive they know they can be replaced if they screw up so they take the time needed to do the jobs right the first time as three call backs in one year they are fired

I feel if they don not have the time to do the job right the first time how the hell can they find the time to go back?

Plumbing is not a race but I do expect productivity with in a reasonable time

The UNIONS normally hold productive people back saying they are working to fast and making their "brothers" look bad

 

[Sylvan]

So would it be best to try the RotoRooting apprentice method? Or a smaller company apprentice and just pay for the schooling myself? I would like to potentially do residential service work and my own business. Not only commercial which is what union is from my understanding.

ANYTHING with "ROTO" RUN as far away as possible from

A smaller company is a much better education

One thing I never understood about some plumbing contractors

My licenses allow me to do commercial, industrial, residential and instructional so why would I limit my potential income by not being able to do all types of plumbing?

I did 47 story office buildings, hospitals, nursing homes ,new construction including fire suppression and heating

One call should do it all

 

[Jeff H Young]

Wish some other plumbers/ plumbing contractors chimed in. Great points and very true the UA has great training use them and dump them if thats the way you choose I dont think thats right . I worked non union for a year and then went off in a partnership with other plumber not really knowing enough but thats how I went. 3 years later was on my own and got my own licence . No where near the sucess of Sylvan but we all do things differant and have differant drive and ability. A driven person can damn near teach them self because amazingly the journeyman especialy non union so called journeyman in my state have zero training and unless its certain citys like L.A. there is no journeyman on non union jobs. So to work with a guy thats knowlegeable isnt always the case forcing you to find out yourself.

 

[James Henry]

I was going to write down some thoughts I had for you about the union and the plumbing trade but then I noticed under your avatar, " In the Trades".

 

[Terry]

I started in the warehouse because the guys from my church didn't think that someone from Bellevue WA would know how to work hard. Six months driving a large flat bed and stocking shelves for the plumbers. Before that I had been a bicycle mechanic for eight years. I was pretty handy with tools, and on weekends helped my family on a farm in Eastern Washington. When they let me plumb finally, within three years I was the fastest plumber they had out of 150 plumbers. Or at least that's what the president of the company said having seen my work records and how much I had been getting done in the new construction field. Being a mechanic in the previous years had taught me to use both hands at the same time. A definite advantage.

The really nice thing about that shop was being able to work with and learn from so many plumbers. Many of those things that I learned with good advice I still do today. When Crown Custom Plumbing had hard times, late 70's a group of us formed Phoenix Mechanical. Out of the ashes it rises. We were doing a lot of multi-family work before I sold my stock and started working at Careco. Lot's of commercial work with them. From there Loyal Mechanical which became Pioneer Plumbing, started by my friend Gary Amos who now owns Wind Mountain Plumbing in Carson WA.

McDonald Miller was a job where I did my biggest layout on a seven story commercial building and a parking garage.

I worked a short time at O'Neil Plumbing in West Seattle before starting my own business.

And at one point I was designing and building homes.

 

[Terry]

I was going to write down some thoughts I had for you about the union and the plumbing trade but then I noticed under your avatar, " In the Trades".

I added that before I realized that he was asking about it and not doing it yet.

 

[James Henry]

I added that before I realized that he was asking about it and not doing it yet.

I guessed that afterward, just figured you were being a nice guy as usual.

 

[Sylvan]

Wish some other plumbers/ plumbing contractors chimed in. Great points and very true the UA has great training use them and dump them if thats the way you choose I dont think thats right . I worked non union for a year and then went off in a partnership with other plumber not really knowing enough but thats how I went. 3 years later was on my own and got my own licence . No where near the sucess of Sylvan but we all do things differant and have differant drive and ability. A driven person can damn near teach them self because amazingly the journeyman especialy non union so called journeyman in my state have zero training and unless its certain citys like L.A. there is no journeyman on non union jobs. So to work with a guy thats knowlegeable isnt always the case forcing you to find out yourself.

I remember taking the 4 part NYC master plumbers exams code and theory 7 hour test and we were allowed only 2 pencils no calculators and sized drainage and vent lines and an error sheet pointing out all the deficiencies

The practical given a few months later had a time limit caulking a joint and lead wiping a lead bend with a ladle and it cant be moved and a 11/2" solder nipple on the horizontal coming out of the side of the lead bend.

I realized knowing the why with having hands on is 50% of being a plumber knowing why is the other 50%

Even a total moron can remove a part and replace in kind not knowing if the other installer actually did it by code or by general plumbing principles

Knowing just theory would be very hard to get a long term job knowing how to work with the hands after a certain age becomes more of a challenge

I took a plumbing test for a town in Westchester NY and there was no practical and the written test took less then 40 minutes and another test I took was over the phone for a village on Long Island

If I only had hand on experience these two other licenses I would never have obtained

I like the idea of a written test followed by a practical

My Master fire suppression test is strictly code and theory nothing about threading ,grooving, welding NADA

Think of it as a drivers license you need to pass a written test to take the practical one with out the other is useless

 

[James Henry]

I went through the union apprenticeship and Sylvan is 100% correct when he say's it's a good education. Sylvan is successful because he is an exceptionally well rounded plumber and he lives in a large city. Take his advice... My advice. if you think you want to be a tradesman, join the union now before you get any older, if you decide you don't like it, quit. then you'll never have to wonder again, but before you jump off, find out if you can get your old job back.
Talk to some hiring managers in the physical therapy field and ask them if they would hire someone who took a break from the physical therapy field for a year or two. C.Y.A., changing careers is trickier then you think.

 

[Jeff H Young]

All of you quite impresive tradesman and careers . and great advice too. I was 30 befor getting in the trade. Its a hard thing career change and this can be a turbulant ride but I never liked the monotonous routine of some jobs . Physical theropy must be pretty good in that medical professional can work at a number of differant places and steady demand.
Out of the 4 guys to respond we all got in slightly differant. As much as Id like to tell you I wasent top hand of 150 men , and havent made the thousands per day but career is satifying . gone back and forth bettween working for others and self employed. Im getting up there and retirement sneaking up on me , Im makeing some adjustments doing smaller jobs ,
I just really think that the UA aprenticeship is so valuable (I never went through it) But truly that is only one way to do it. Ive never wanted to be strictly service but there is nothing wrong with that at all. Then there is Pipefitting and Welding, working with industrial or hvac piping not really plumbing but same union.

 

[Sylvan]

Terry,

When I was an apprentice I used to work for various shops and even though the union was against an apprentice looking for employment I used to quit a job after a year and start working for another union plumbing contractor

Reason being I worked on acid and chemical waste systems very interesting work but would limit my ability to keep working in bad times

I then worked in hospitals but after I installed an autopsy table with all the back flow devices and special waste I knew this installation would be once in a life time so I moved on to New high rise work After the 1st floor the rest was typical for 47 + stories

So I decide to do industrial plumbing welding 8 " gas piping but again its limited work

Jobbing along with heating and sewer and drain cleaning I found was a gold mine and never out of work

We still do new construction single family multi million dollar homes but nursing homes and housing complex's pay the bills

All of you quite impressive tradesman and careers . and great advice too. I was 30 before getting in the trade. Its a hard thing career change and this can be a turbulent ride but I never liked the monotonous routine of some jobs . Physical therapy must be pretty good in that medical professional can work at a number of different places and steady demand.
Out of the 4 guys to respond we all got in slightly different. As much as Id like to tell you I wasn't top hand of 150 men , and haven't made the thousands per day but career is satisfying . gone back and forth between working for others and self employed. I'm getting up there and retirement sneaking up on me , I'm making some adjustments doing smaller jobs ,
I just really think that the UA apprenticeship is so valuable (I never went through it) But truly that is only one way to do it. I've never wanted to be strictly service but there is nothing wrong with that at all. Then there is Pipefitting and Welding, working with industrial or HVAC piping not really plumbing but same union.

The reason I like jobbing is positive cash flow within 30 days .

New construction, institutional ,industrial and some commercial it can take over 90 days to be paid.

Also the profit margin on repair /drain cleaning is much higher .

Also with jobbing if you have a dead beat account you only lose possibly a few hundred in materials and labor most other work is thousands laid out

One of my residential accounts ( housing development) still owes over $90.000 going on 3 months as they pay very slowly and yet we keep servicing them

The nursing home accounts combined owes over $200,000

If it was not for repair work I could never pay the supply houses or make pay roll

Gas piping is "plumbing" and piping over 4" we welded except for the gas train by the large boilers that was usually flanged

https://terrylove.com/images/pb/mpcom_320x240.jpg

 

[Jeff H Young]

New construction is tough hard to control many things agree with Sylvan you get stiffed on one job and it can bankrupt you or maybe 2 jobs. do a million dollars work make 100 ooo if your lucky tons of overhead

 

[Sylvan]

Being a plumber can almost be regarded as a scares skill or even a superpower. If fact, all trades like bricklayers, electricians, mechanics, etc. are scarce skills. Everyone wants to have a socially acceptable job like an engineer, a doctor, fund manager, etc. but everyone forgets that when you toilet leaks or your drain is blocked, you need a plumber to sort out your problem.

When covid-19 came along did you notice how peoples "priorities" were to run out and buy toilet paper then as an after thought masks and hand sanitizer?

This shows the mentality of modern society that has their mind in the toilet

I was totally taken off guard within 2 weeks after NYC had its outbreak in my area

My employees started working 9 then 12 then 14 hours a day and then chit "hit the fan" as they are working 7 days a week over 10 hours a day.

My payroll astronomical as "civilized society" started stopping up toilets and main sewers with rags and paper towels

They worked Friday 2 PM - 4AM to clear a 350 ft run of 20" clay sewer stoppages water Jetting and 11/4" cables .

With many people working form home the fixtures are now working at full capacity so lots of defects are starting to show up
also with the weather getting colder and people working from home are not used to working in cold conditions so our start up heating calls are off the chart

People need clean water, working drainage systems and heat

Plumbing is recession proof , possibly more then most other professions .

People are staying away from doctors officers unless they are really sick

Maintenance staff in nursing homes just about gave up so the management started hiring contractors who can do plumbing ,heating , calls

The more a contractor can offer the less chance they will bother to go out for bids as one call does it all and right now service comes before price shopping

The only business that surpasses plumbing is funeral parlors averaging $7,000 each

With Mega press and Propress even piping that cannot be shut down completely can still have a permanent fix unlike brazing or soldering where you cannot have ant water flowing such as condensate on steam systems.

Office buildings are shut down which now leads to a new gold mine for plumbers especially in high rises

Think about this

No tenants are in the building meaning the waste/sewer traps have evaporated lost their seal, the potable water lines hot and cold now have stagnant water trapped in these lines perfect conditions for Legionnaires disease and other bacteria to incubate in these lines which now must be flushed and sanitized to also make sure there is no copper or lead contamination

If the plumbing is not properly disinfected this opens another money maker as people become sick namely expert plumbing witness/ doctors and engineers especially sanitary engineering

Good thing our motto is "plumbers protect the health of the nation" and prevention rather then seeking a cure

On one of the master plumbing tests I took in 1982 there was several questions regarding potable water tanks and piping and how do we disinfect them and how often

If your up on this type of plumbing and keep abreast of how much hypochlorite PPM to use outside of these tanks and inside and offer a potable water cleaning service there alone you can make several thousand a call even using one person BUT they had better know what to do according to the ASSE white paper