Shallow Well - Used to get water, but now I don't

[ApoJake]

Hey Experts! I'm having an issue with getting water for my already existing irrigation system. Five years ago, I drove in 20 feet of a 2" galvanized pipe with a 3 foot well point (also 2" dia) for a total well length of 23 feet.

I had water all previous years until this year. Had an old 1HP pump (not sure how old as it was here when I bought the house in 2015 but I'm guessing it was at least 10+ years old) and I started to get lower and lower flow to my sprinkler system until I eventually got nothing. It could run one zone for maybe 20 minutes, but that was it. I would let it sit for 10 minutes or so and I could run another zone for another 20 minutes or so. Then the old pump eventually got to the point where I was getting no water at all no matter how long it sat. I bought a new Star 1HP (Model HSP10P1) cast iron pump, rated for pulling water up to 25 feet. Plumbed everything up, primed it and still no water.

The 2" well pipe comes out of the ground to a 90 (galv), then I have a union joint, then check valve, then to the pump - all 2" pvc to the pump (see first image). I've filled the pump with water to the outlet of the priming tee and the water level does not go down after letting it sit overnight (so check valve seems to be working). I've disconnected the union joint and get a big suction sound (so union joint seems to be working).

I measured the water level in the well and I currently have about 4.5 feet of water at the bottom of the well, so above the top of the well screen. If I remember correctly, when I drove the well, it had about 7-8 feet of water from the bottom of the well - so definitely lower this year than before.

I've tried priming several times by filling the pump to the outlet tee, cycle the pump and let it run for a couple minutes, then turn it off. The water level will drop to pump inlet after the pump shuts off. Then I'll refill the pump and repeat. My thought is that the pump is taking the water I put in for priming and pushing it out, and getting to the point where it's sucking air from the well. No sprinklers will pop up, no matter what zone I select. When I take the plug out of the priming tee while the pump is running, I see bubbles (see second image).

What I'm wondering is, do I need to keep repeating this process and eventually I'll get water up the well, or is the water level just too low for the pump to pull it that high? We have been in a bit of a drought in southeast Michigan this spring so I'm wondering if I just can't get the pump to pull the water up the well with the water level being lower than previous years. I've thought about adding some sort of boiler valve or something where I can hook my garden hose up (my house is city water) to try and fill the well with water to give the pump a head start for priming, but I also want to keep the number of connections to a minimum. I don't think a foot valve would be an option here with the type of well I have.

I can put water in the well and it takes it, no problem so I'm thinking this is not a plugged screen either. I also jetted it with a pressure washer and blasted with compressed air. I have not tried acidizing it but I don't think I have mineral deposits built up considering it takes water just fine.

I've also thought about replumbing the connections between the well and pump as all of those are old pvc except for the last connection to the pump because I had to rebuild that due to different inlet size than the previous pump. But I feel like I'd have an issue with the water level dropping in the pump or no suction sound when I disconnect the union if I had an issue there. I've tried the shaving cream trick and couldn't see anything being pulled in at any connection.

Sorry for the lengthy read, I just wanted to get all the information out there in one post. Any advise would be greatly appreciated as I'm out of ideas at this point.

Thank you!
Jake

 

[WorthFlorida]

Some some reason this forum will not show new posts for a week or more then a new posts will suddenly appear.

Air bubbles is troublesome. You're sucking air and all your troubleshooting indicates there are no leaks. Even with leaks on the galvanized elbow to the pump it usually will still pump water and only lose prime when the pump is off. I counted ten connections in the two foot length. The pump does look like a cast iron irrigation pump.

Possibilities other than a low water table is the seal on the motor shaft to the impeller is bad. Was the pump stored outdoors for the winter? If not there might have been a little water left behind and it crack the seal.

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[LLigetfa]

Plastic fittings within two feet of the pump inlet is never a good idea. they can deform and leak from the suction and heat from the pump.

 

[ApoJake]

Hi, thank you both for reading and replying to my post.

Possibilities other than a low water table is the seal on the motor shaft to the impeller is bad. Was the pump stored outdoors for the winter? If not there might have been a little water left behind and it crack the seal.

No, it is a brand new cast iron self-priming pump.

Plastic fittings within two feet of the pump inlet is never a good idea. they can deform and leak from the suction and heat from the pump.

As for an update, I refitted everything between the 90 and pump with 2" galvanized, all new parts. Same with the outlet tee for good measure (see picture). All connections have non-hardening pipe thread sealant. Not sure if it matters, but I swapped the position of the union joint and check valve from the previous pvc setup I had to get the check valve closer to the well. Still nothing.

I tried to rotate (tighten) the well pipe itself with the biggest pipe wrench I have, thinking maybe there could possibly be a loose connection on the well, and it didn't budge, like at all, so that's as tight as it's going to be. I also cranked the heck out of those connections, and used thread sealant, before driving it into the ground. I know I'm not perfect, but I feel like if it was an issue with any connection that is now below ground, I would have had an issue sooner than five years after I drove the well.

I'm leaning towards it being an issue with the water level. I measured again, and it's still at about 4.5ft from the bottom of the well, so it's above the 3ft well screen, but I'm wondering if it's just too much air for the pump to remove and is just not bringing the water level up to the check valve. I've thought about putting a 2" tee & ball valve at the top of the well to allow me to try and "pre-fill" the well with water to raise that water level up temporarily, then quickly close the valve and start the pump. This is assuming the water level will rise in the well when I do this of course (see my crude drawing of this plan).

I've also seen a post on this forum about someone using a vacuum pump and getting their well pump to work. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....mp-on-a-driven-well-with-a-check-valve.90167/
I don't have a vacuum pump, but I've thought about getting one to see if that will work for me. I've already thrown a stupid amount of money at this project, what's a little more, right?

I also have a boiler valve that I can hook up my city water to to supply the pump with water at the top of the outlet tee (shown in the picture). I've actually used this to run my sprinkler system in the meantime and it seems to work well. Until I get this all figured out, would you foresee any issues with doing this? I mean, other than a high water bill. I know it seems odd having water coming in above the discharge line at the tee but I can't turn my sprinklers on with out the pump turning on so it's kind of all or nothing for that. I just want to make sure that doing this won't damage the pump.

Thanks again!

 

[LLigetfa]

I'm leaning towards it being an issue with the water level. I measured again, and it's still at about 4.5ft from the bottom of the well, so it's above the 3ft well screen, but I'm wondering if it's just too much air for the pump to remove and is just not bringing the water level up to the check valve. I've thought about putting a 2" tee & ball valve at the top of the well to allow me to try and "pre-fill" the well with water to raise that water level up temporarily, then quickly close the valve and start the pump. This is assuming the water level will rise in the well when I do this of course (see my crude drawing of this plan).

Depending on the well's formation affecting the recovery rate, having only a foot and a half of water above the screen might not be enough. Google "cone of depression".

As for pre-filling the casing, you are essentially trying to reverse the cone to be a dome. To displace the air, the casing should be open at the top and the filling hose just loosely shoved in. If the well doesn't take the water as fast as you can pour it in, then it is not likely a viable well.

If you think it is just a pump priming issue, you could have the city water hose connected and try starting the pump, alternating between turning the hose on and off. If it partially collapses the garden hose, that indicates the pump can suck more than the hose can deliver.

 

[ApoJake]

Depending on the well's formation affecting the recovery rate, having only a foot and a half of water above the screen might not be enough.

I think that would explain why this was not an issue in the past and suddenly is now, as in the past I measured a higher water level in the well at about 7-8ft. It might also explain that when it was able to run earlier this year, it would run one sprinkler zone for about a half hour or so, then when it switched to the next zone, it didn't have enough "oompf" to pop those sprinkler heads up. Which if that's the case, I suppose I'm just SoL at this point because I can't do anything to change the water table. Going deeper really isn't an option either I don't think, considering I'm at the theoretical limit of a shallow well pump.

As for pre-filling the casing, you are essentially trying to reverse the cone to be a dome. To displace the air, the casing should be open at the top and the filling hose just loosely shoved in. If the well doesn't take the water as fast as you can pour it in, then it is not likely a viable well.

The well does take water pretty easily so this may be a lost cause to try and fill the well with water.

I do have a vacuum gauge that I want to try and hook up to that 2" tee at the top of the well. I suppose if I get a vacuum, the would rule out an air leak and would likely mean that it would be the water table and cone of depression being the issue.

As for running the city water to the pump at the top of the outlet tee (through the boiler valve), think there'd be any issue with that? I figure as long as the water is getting to the pump, keeping it cooled, it shouldn't be an issue, I wouldn't think, but the extent of my knowledge about well pumps is, "they move water."

 

[WorthFlorida]

You did what I was going to propose that you place a valve at the top of the tee. With that wide open and the pump working it should shot water maybe twenty feet. It also allows the prime to work faster.

Was the pump replaced because of this no pressure issue? What was the old HP pump and this pump? Some go with a larger pump for a replacement and then the well cannot handle the recovery rate needed.

It is looking like a well problem.

 

[ApoJake]

Was the pump replaced because of this no pressure issue? What was the old HP pump and this pump? Some go with a larger pump for a replacement and then the well cannot handle the recovery rate needed.

It is looking like a well problem.

The old pump was a 1HP pump (same as the new one). I was having issues with the old pump to where it continuously decreased water production over time until it got to the point where it would it would produce no water. This was over several days. Each time I ran it, the run time that it was producing water got shorter and shorter.
Are you thinking it might be a water supply issue (i.e. the water table is just too low)? We're definitely below average in rainfall over a typical May / June timeframe.

 

[ApoJake]

UPDATE:

I ended up putting that tee in, hooked a vacuum gauge to it and it does build (and hold) a vacuum so that leads me to believe that I don't have an air leak in the well anywhere. The vacuum gauge did read higher (or lower, I guess?) than what it shows in the picture, I just never took a picture of it at that point.

I did also try filling the well at the top of the well tee (with the 2" ball valve) but the well takes water faster than it can fill - which is normally a good thing, lol!

As far as I can tell, the only thing left that it could be is an issue with the water level. I guess I just have to wait for it to rise.

Thanks for any advice that was given. If I happen to figure this out, I'll try and remember to post back in case anyone else has a similar case.

 

[Reach4]

https://www.kylesconverter.com/pressure/inches-of-mercury-to-feet-of-water

See the table which says 10 inches of mercury (inHg) vacuum can lift water 11.33 ft.
20 inches of mercury can lift water 22.66 ft.

 

[ApoJake]

https://www.kylesconverter.com/pressure/inches-of-mercury-to-feet-of-water

See the table which says 10 inches of mercury (inHg) vacuum can lift water 11.33 ft.
20 inches of mercury can lift water 22.66 ft.