All faucets+toilets spitting+growling air

[yNotry]

Hi Everyone,

I really need help! All my faucets and toilets are spitting and growling air. I have a Gould submersible pump (replaced 2+ yrs ago) in 100 ft well with Well-X-Trol 202 pressure tank and 40/60 psi controller. Water supply hasn’t been a problem - filled 1700 gallon pool in 3-4 hrs earlier this year and years prior. Had a TON of rain throughout summer. The problem started happening over a month ago. I followed instructions from other posts on this forum: turn off pump breaker, open all taps to drain pipes, left them open, checked tank pressure (was 22 psi), filled with air (to 37 psi), turned backed on pump breaker, letting faucets run until all air was gone and only water flowing. Everything was fine for 3 or so weeks. Then last week it started happening again. So I did the same steps as before. This time the tank was 30 psi so I raised it to 38. Then let the water run for 10-15 minutes after air bled out and only water flowing. Everything was fine for a day or two and now it’s back worse than before.

Any help is much appreciated!

 

[yNotry]

Hi Everyone,

I really need help! All my faucets and toilets are spitting and growling air. I have a Gould submersible pump (replaced 2+ yrs ago) in 100 ft well with Well-X-Trol 202 pressure tank and 40/60 psi controller. Water supply hasn’t been a problem - filled 1700 gallon pool in 3-4 hrs earlier this year and years prior. Had a TON of rain throughout summer. The problem started happening over a month ago. I followed instructions from other posts on this forum: turn off pump breaker, open all taps to drain pipes, left them open, checked tank pressure (was 22 psi), filled with air (to 37 psi), turned backed on pump breaker, letting faucets run until all air was gone and only water flowing. Everything was fine for 3 or so weeks. Then last week it started happening again. So I did the same steps as before. This time the tank was 30 psi so I raised it to 38. Then let the water run for 10-15 minutes after air bled out and only water flowing. Everything was fine for a day or two and now it’s back worse than before.

Any help is much appreciated!

Anyone? I’m new to having a well. Am trying to decide whether I need to replace the well tank, as well as increase it’s size (10 GPM pump running 30-40 sec) and replace the tank fittings and controller. I’m also thinking about installing a CSV valve. Would appreciate some guidance and confirmation before spending the money and time.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Fitter30]

Expansion tanks shouldn't lose pressure in a month. If the bladder is compromised air will bleed into the main water supply if the.air pressure is above water pressure and take water in when air is less than water. Turn pump off bleed air from the tank water comes out bladder is bad new tank needed. Gauge on water line? Open bath tub valve full open watch gauge is pressure drops for a second or two then back up pump is cavitating thats where the air is coming from.

 

[Reach4]

ith Well-X-Trol 202 pressure tank

How old is that. You can check the date code.
Make sure you have a good valve cap in place after you top up the air, in case the Schrader valve is leaking.

Anyone? I’m new to having a well. Am trying to decide whether I need to replace the well tank, as well as increase it’s size (10 GPM pump running 30-40 sec)

I suggest a 44 gallon tank if you have room. Note that tanks over 32 gallon will have a 1.25 thread in, so you will reduce/adapt.

Open bath tub valve full open watch gauge is pressure drops for a second or two then back up pump is cavitating thats where the air is coming from.

Backup pump? Most systems don't have backup pumps. Tell us about that.

Do you have an above-ground check valve? If you don't know, show us a photo that includes a few feet of pipe from the well, the input to the pressure tank, and the pressure switch..

 

[yNotry]

Expansion tanks shouldn't lose pressure in a month. If the bladder is compromised air will bleed into the main water supply if the.air pressure is above water pressure and take water in when air is less than water. Turn pump off bleed air from the tank water comes out bladder is bad new tank needed. Gauge on water line? Open bath tub valve full open watch gauge is pressure drops for a second or two then back up pump is cavitating thats where the air is coming from.

Thanks for replying and suggestions. Turned off pump and only air bled out. Pressure gauge is broken but using air pump gauge it showed 50 psi. Pump does not kick on more than it’s typical cycles based on 40/60 - have electricity monitor showing when it turns on and then off.

Am not able to turn on tub and still see gauge but turned on garden hose full, saw no drop+return on pressure gauge. A lot of air come out of hose with water. Left water running. Pressure gauge went down to 40 psi, pump kicked on, filled tank to 57/58 psi then stopped. A lot of air came out again near end of cycle. I let water run again until 40 psi kicked on pump. Then turned water off. Pump filled tank to about 57 psi.

 

[yNotry]

How old is that. You can check the date code.
Make sure you have a good valve cap in place after you top up the air, in case the Schrader valve is leaking.

Tank manufactured 2/4/2011. The cap seems good, beefy and tight. The valve opens + closes crisply when pressed.

I suggest a 44 gallon tank if you have room. Note that tanks over 32 gallon will have a 1.25 thread in, so you will reduce/adapt.

AO Smith has a 36 gallon tank with 9.7 gallon drawdown and 1” thread that will fit. Anything bigger will be a problem. I’ve been considering installing a CSV valve at some point however the past year or more water use has been more frequent low volume use vs less frequent high volume use (showers, wash) due to Covid and not having to go to work every day.

Backup pump? Most systems don't have backup pumps. Tell us about that.

Don’t have a backup pump.

Do you have an above-ground check valve? If you don't know, show us a photo that includes a few feet of pipe from the well, the input to the pressure tank, and the pressure switch..

Yes, there’s a Flomatic valve.

 

[WorthFlorida]

After you get this pressure leak problem resolved, going to a CSV will greatly help. Steady pressure and less stress on the entire system will result. A CSV can work on a much smaller pressure tank.

 

[Reach4]

Yes, there’s a Flomatic valve.

Most people don't want an above-ground check valve. One advantage of not having that check valve is that the line to the pump stays pressurized. There are places where that topside check valve is the norm. It usually does not cause a problem.

With a non-diaphragm/bladder pump, there is no separation between the water and the air in the pressure tank. The air dissolves, and must be replaced.

So why did you only recently start getting air? A small change in the check valve at the pump could allow some water slowly through and air comes into the pipe. So when you turn the pump back on, a big dose of air gets added. If the water down low was fully pressurized, that might cause the check valve at the pump to seat better. Or a small leak, such as at the pitless o-ring, could be compensated for by the pump running now and then.


Here are some search terms for that system: snifter bleeder.
I suggest you search this forum and a search engine for those words. See what you think. I am not a pro.

 

[yNotry]

Thanks for replying and suggestions. Turned off pump and only air bled out. Pressure gauge is broken but using air pump gauge it showed 50 psi. Pump does not kick on more than it’s typical cycles based on 40/60 - have electricity monitor showing when it turns on and then off.

Most people don't want an above-ground check valve. One advantage of not having that check valve is that the line to the pump stays pressurized. There are places where that topside check valve is the norm. It usually does not cause a problem.

With a non-diaphragm/bladder pump, there is no separation between the water and the air in the pressure tank. The air dissolves, and must be replaced.

So why did you only recently start getting air? A small change in the check valve at the pump could allow some water slowly through and air comes into the pipe. So when you turn the pump back on, a big dose of air gets added. If the water down low was fully pressurized, that might cause the check valve at the pump to seat better. Or a small leak, such as at the pitless o-ring, could be compensated for by the pump running now and then.


Here are some search terms for that system: snifter bleeder.
I suggest you search this forum and a search engine for those words. See what you think. I am not a pro.

Thanks, I read up some on this forums ‘snifter bleeder’ threads. Are you saying it could be the check valve? Meaning removing the check valve might fix it? I’m game for for that vs replacing a tank. What do I put in it’s place? A section of brass pipe? Or can a CSV valve fit instead?

The submersible pump was replaced 2.5 years ago from a 7.5 to 10 gpm. Nothing else has changed other than replacing the whole house filter every 6 to 12 months. The filter catches a fine brown/reddish silt.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks, I read up some on this forums ‘snifter bleeder’ threads. Are you saying it could be the check valve? Meaning removing the check valve might fix it?

It might fix it. Depending on what is going on, it might not.

Rather than removing the check valve, you can remove its poppet. That would have the advantage that you could restore the check valve if it was working around some problem, like a big hole in the drop pipe or a bad o-ring on the pitless.

But yes, that would be a good spot for the CSV, too.

 

[yNotry]

It might fix it. Depending on what is going on, it might not.

Rather than removing the check valve, you can remove its poppet. That would have the advantage that you could restore the check valve if it was working around some problem, like a big hole in the drop pipe or a bad o-ring on the pitless.

But yes, that would be a good spot for the CSV, too.

I can see how it might explain the air coming out of the faucets. Would that explain the drop in well tank air pressure from 38 to 30 within a month?

 

[Reach4]

I can see how it might explain the air coming out of the faucets. Would that explain the drop in well tank air pressure from 38 to 30 within a month?

Nope. Only a tank failure or lack of a good valve cap explains that.

You can top up with air temporarily, while you take steps to get a new tank or new valve cap.

Valve caps seldom fail, but they can go missing.

 

[yNotry]

Nope. Only a tank failure or lack of a good valve cap explains that.

You can top up with air temporarily, while you take steps to get a new tank or new valve cap.

Valve caps seldom fail, but they can go missing.

Thanks for all your help. Seems like I’m making progress in narrowing down issue.

Just got done trying to remove check valve. After shutting off pump and bleeding all faucets, the well tank was same pressure as last Saturday at 39 psi. No loss despite the worst spitting and kicking ever on a daily basis. I dropped the pressure to 37 psi tho.

Next I shut off supply valve to house after tank and opened the drain valve. No more than a cup of water came out. The well tank was empty and easy to move. While trying to remove check valve tho I could hear a slight clicking and air noise coming out of the open drain valve. I’ve been running the water non-stop last half hour - plenty of water and no air/spitting. Given these three observations, it seems like the well tank and well water supply are ok which leaves the check valve(s) no?

My next big problem is how to remove the above ground check valve. I can’t turn the fixed elbow fitting and unable to get the fitting out of the black poly tube. Loosened clamps then tried lifting and twisting as well as levering with large flat screw driver. Any suggestions on how to remove?

‘Real men ask for directions while lost men keep getting more lost.’

 

[Reach4]

I see the problem with trying to remove that check valve without breaking something. You don't have a union on your tank tee. So without cutting that check valve with a saw, I don't see how you get that out. And even if you do get it out, how do you put something in there to carry the water?

One way would be to pull that barbed fitting out, and putting a new one in. I am afraid this could end up more complex than I was first thinking.

Is that black tube running down with the the pipe being used as a conduit/sleeve for the electric wires? I am pretty sure that is the case.

 

[yNotry]

I see the problem with trying to remove that check valve without breaking something. You don't have a union on your tank tee. So without cutting that check valve with a saw, I don't see how you get that out. And even if you do get it out, how do you put something in there to carry the water?

One way would be to pull that barbed fitting out, and putting a new one in. I am afraid this could end up more complex than I was first thinking.

Is that black tube running down with the the pipe being used as a conduit/sleeve for the electric wires? I am pretty sure that is the case.

Yes, the other black poly pipe contains the wires. The challenged is how to pull the barbed fitting OR what other fitting to cut.

If I really don’t need the check valve then I could replace it with a CSV. The issue with that is I will likely need more space since the CSV is longer (4-9/16”) and will likely need more fittings as well.

And while I could cut the check valve, I’d rather cut the cross tee instead since I won’t ever re-use it. Plus I could replace it with a union tee. Yet that runs the risk of not being able to remove the tee from tank fitting without damage.

Another potential issue is then mixing the stainless CSV with brass. I’ve read mixed positions for and against. How much risk is it to mix? Having everything stainless like the CSV is the obvious lowest risk. But a stainless check valve, if needed, is $50. How sure can I be that I won’t need a check valve?

I have plans to replace all of this (except the tank unless necessary) next year or so when I pull and replace the 1/2” copper main with 1” pex from tank to a manifold that branches out to 1/2” groups (kitchen, w/d, each bath, etc).

Do 4” brass fittings with 1 1/4” female ends exist? I suppose I could rig something if they don’t.

 

[Reach4]

Another potential issue is then mixing the stainless CSV with brass.

Brass alternated with stainless is often recommended.

Do 4” brass fittings with 1 1/4” female ends exist? I suppose I could rig something if they don’t.

Are you asking if 4-inch long brass 1-1/4 inch nipples are readily available. I am confident yes. Here is one: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Brass-Nipples-163000
4 inch seems a bit shorter than what I would think for that job, but you may be thinking of a different thing.

But if it is to go into the new pressure tank, consider a "tank tee" with a union. Those that screw into a 44 gallon tank have 1-1/4 outside threads and 1 inch inside threads. For some tank tees they suggest that you use the outside threads to avoid splitting. I expect others are stronger.

If you have not worked with PEX before, it may be stiffer than you imagine.

 

[yNotry]

Brass alternated with stainless is often recommended.

Glad to hear.

Are you asking if 4-inch long brass 1-1/4 inch nipples are readily available. I am confident yes. Here is one: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Brass-Nipples-163000
4 inch seems a bit shorter than what I would think for that job, but you may be thinking of a different thing.

Thanks, tho I’m asking if one exists to replace the check valve which has 1 1/4” female threads on inside to match 1 1/4” male threads on tank tee and on the elbow with barbs in black poly pipe.

But if it is to go into the new pressure tank, consider a "tank tee" with a union. Those that screw into a 44 gallon tank have 1-1/4 outside threads and 1 inch inside threads. For some tank tees they suggest that you use the outside threads to avoid splitting. I expect others are stronger.

Thanks, definitely will get tank tee with union! And was thinking the same per question above about 1 1/4” female pipe fitting.

If you have not worked with PEX before, it may be stiffer than you imagine.

I have some but not 1”. Am planning on using Pex A, bend supports and warming pex (no higher than temp limit) to make turns. Worst case would be using elbows to make turns.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks, tho I’m asking if one exists to replace the check valve which has 1 1/4” female threads on inside to match 1 1/4” male threads on tank tee and on the elbow with barbs in black poly pipe.

If you can take that check valve loose without sawing, you can probably remove the poppet, and just use the housing to span the gap.

To get a barbed (insert) connector into the SIDR poly, you usually have to heat the poly. Boiling water is good because a flame can cause damage.

Sometimes it is better to run your pex in an inverted U rather than trying to make the shortest path. You get some flex that way.

 

[Sarg]

Just to mention ..... as Reach4 stated ........ a heat gun is your best tool when working with barbed fittings ........ You won't believe the difference. With a little heat making the piping more malleable makes the barbed fittings much easier to remove. Just use caution not to overheat to the point of melting.
( I replaced an above ground check valve with a CSV last year )

 

[LLigetfa]

I can’t turn the fixed elbow fitting and unable to get the fitting out of the black poly tube.

After you remove the jubilee clamps, the barb fitting will be able to turn inside the poly pipe, allowing the fitting to be unthreaded without actually removing the barb end from the poly pipe.

I suspect that you have a leak somewhere between the check valve and the pump which is how the air is getting into the system so removing the check valve will just expose the leak which will need to be found and fixed.