Well pump is short-cycling in a weird way (VIDEO)

[jbarry]

Hello!

Our well pump is short cycling. the odd bit is the inconsistent way the water pressure drops in the line when water is being used.

Setup:
-This is a residential/single family home
-Pressure tank was replaced about 4 years ago
-Pressure switch is 40/60 and was replaced about 7 years ago (although the switch seems to turn the pump on at about 36psi instead of 40)
-well was just deepened this spring. Static water level is approx. 60'. Pump depth is 105'. Well depth is 149'.
-Submersible well pump is under 1 year old. it is a 3/4 hp. (I believe made by Franklin)

We had a lot of sediment after the well was deepened in May. I suspect this might be a contributing factor?
What I've done: I turned off power to the well, drained the pressure tank, and checked the air pressure. it was at about 33psi, so I increased to 34psi, as the switch is kicking on at 36psi. This didn't change the short-cycling.

I took a video to show what is happening. Hopefully this will help:
video :

video 2:

(this is my first time uploading a video to You tube, so hopefully it works!)

Would this be indicative of a bad pressure tank?

 

[Reach4]

Could be indicative that the path between the pressure gauge and the pressure tank is very long or obstructed.

The path does not look all that long in the video.

I propose that you turn off the power to the pump. Then measure how much water you can get from the tank. I think this water could be drawn from the tub, even though that is on the top floor. The upper floor up also makes it less likely that the pipes are draining to supply much of the water.

If you use a 5 gallon bucket, see how many times you can fill the bucket. The tank should be able to deliver about 1/4 the nominal size of the pressure tank.

 

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[jbarry]

Could be indicative that the path between the pressure gauge and the pressure tank is very long or obstructed.

The path does not look all that long in the video.

I propose that you turn off the power to the pump. Then measure how much water you can get from the tank. I think this water could be drawn from the tub, even though that is on the top floor. The upper floor up also makes it less likely that the pipes are draining to supply much of the water.

If you use a 5 gallon bucket, see how many times you can fill the bucket. The tank should be able to deliver about 1/4 the nominal size of the pressure tank.

Possibly. I'm not sure what the ideal distance is between the pressure gauge and tank. It is around 2 or 3 ft. I will drain the tank again and see if I can measure the volume that exits

 

[Valveman]

Yep, tank is bad. Shows to have 55 PSI pre-charge and should only have 35 PSI. Gauges drops at 55 means 55 air charge. Only way that happens by itself is when the diaphragm breaks and lets 55 PSI water in the air chamber. Pump was cycling too much even before, as that is what tears the diaphragm in the tank. Solve your cycling problem and your problems will go away.

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[jbarry]

Thanks! That is too bad, as the tank is not very old. Could a high amount of sediment have caused this?

Also, assuming the diaphragm IS ruptured, then if I turn off the power to the well and drain the tank, should I expect to hear air hissing out the drain? (I haven't tried this, but I'm curious if doing this would be a definitive confirmation of a ruptured diaphragm).

 

[Reach4]

Possibly. I'm not sure what the ideal distance is between the pressure gauge and tank. It is around 2 or 3 ft. I will drain the tank again and see if I can measure the volume that exits

While ideal is zero, mine might be 1.2 ft, and still works. Besides length of path, the diameter would play a role. The gpm the pump is putting out would play a role. And if there were some kind of partial obstruction in the path, that would play a role -- but I don't know how such an obstruction could have come to be.

Valveman's theory is probably right, but it is still going to be worthwhile to do the test I proposed IMO.

I turned off power to the well, drained the pressure tank, and checked the air pressure. it was at about 33psi, so I increased to 34psi,

and if that stays consistent for a week later, I am not so sure the tank is bad.

Your tank is an expensive tank, and they try to only sell through professional installers. If the tank has failed, I don't know how that 5 year warranty works in practice. https://www.flexconind.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/In-Well-IOM-LR-8-29-18.pdf

 

[jbarry]

So I've tinkered a bit.

I turned off the well pump, closed the valve that went from the pressure tank to the house, and I drained the pressure tank. I measured about 5.5-6 gallons of water that came out. (this includes several pipes that hold at least another gallon)

With the pressure tank empty I checked the air pressure. It was about 29/30-ish psi. I added more to bring it up to about 35 (as the switch has been kicking on at around 36 or so).

I also replaced the gauge, since it was old, and I wanted to feel like I could trust the readings, so I replaced it with a new gauge that I got on Amazon.

The pump now kicks on at about 38 psi (after losing/dropping pressure instantly from 58psi-38psi), and then it kicks off at 60psi.
It takes about 4 seconds to go from 60psi to 38psi.

The only water running during this was one garden hose. I tested how much water comes out of the hose in 4 seconds, and it was between 1 and 2 quarts.

Here is an updated video from today:



I emailed my local company. They installed this pressure tank in January of 2020, and the tank manufacturer's website indicates it should have a 5 year warranty. Hopefully they will honor it.

 

[Reach4]

I turned off the well pump, closed the valve that went from the pressure tank to the house, and I drained the pressure tank. I measured about 5.5-6 gallons of water that came out.

What is the model number of the pressure tank? If that is even a 32 gallon tank, that is low. So that would reinforce the bad tank idea. If you are going to contact the seller about a warranty, sooner is better.

(this includes several pipes that hold at least another gallon)

There are several pipes that are before the valve that connects to the house plumbing?

 

[jbarry]

What is the model number of the pressure tank? If that is even a 32 gallon tank, that is low. So that would reinforce the bad tank idea. If you are going to contact the seller about a warranty, sooner is better.


There are several pipes that are before the valve that connects to the house plumbing?

looks like a 22 gallon.

I'll explain the pipes as soon as I can.

 

[Reach4]

Sounds to me as if tank could be perfectly fine, but that requires something else to explain the symptom. There would have to be a significant obstruction between the tee to the pressure switch and the pressure tank. I don't know where such an obstruction could have come about. What do you have in the path... about 2 ft of 1 inch CPVC?

I suggest you repeat that volume test, but this time do not turn off the valve to the house, but fill the bucket from the tub on the upper floor. You will know that the pipes you are talking about are not contributing water. If you get 5.5 gallons (or even 5 gallons) there, I think your pressure tank is not waterlogged.

 

[Bannerman]

(after losing/dropping pressure instantly from 58psi-38psi), and then it kicks off at 60psi.
It takes about 4 seconds to go from 60psi to 38psi.

As Valveman stated, this description and the observations of your video, show common symptoms of bad pressure tank.

I turned off the well pump, closed the valve that went from the pressure tank to the house, and I drained the pressure tank. I measured about 5.5-6 gallons of water that came out. (this includes several pipes that hold at least another gallon)

How much time did it take to drain all 5.5-6 gallons? Did you attempt to rock/move the tank to establish if any additional water continued to remain inside after the tank was drained?

If the main supply valve to the house plumbing is located directly after the pressure tank, what are those 'several pipes' that you mention, that drained at least another gallon into your measurement device?

-Submersible well pump is under 1 year old. it is a 3/4 hp. (I believe made by Franklin)

Pump model number?

As the pump is <1 year old, and the pressure tank ~4 years old, how much larger (GPM and head capacity) is the current pump compared to the pump it replaced?

For a 3/4HP pump in a well with a 60' static level, I anticipate a 22 gallon tank is too small, which would result in excessive cycling, thereby causing rapid/premature wear of the pump, pressure tank, pressure switch, check valve etc.

 

[jbarry]

I’ll try my best to describe this.

This is all in the crawl space. The house is a split-level, meaning it has a main floor, and then off to the side that floor splits up 6 steps to an upstairs, and also down 6 steps to a basement. Here’s a random pic of a split -level I grabbed off Google.

This plumbing is all in the crawl space under the main level.
Attached is a pic.
Here is the legend to explain the pic:

A- 1” Schedule 40 PVC. This is the main water line that comes in through the foundation. Path: 9” pipe> elbow> 14”pipe (the switch and gauge are on this section)>elbow4”>tee>12”?into pressure tank.

B- This is ¾” Schedule 40 PVC that connects to the house. The blue-handled valve is what I turned off so I could measure the volume of water coming out of the pressure tank. Up at the top of line B you can see a union where it connects to the galvanized. The house was built in 1974, so all the pipes throughout the house are galvanized (I believe those are ½”) The distance between the blue-handle valve (B), and the green-handled spigot © is 12”, then 6” to the tee off of A, so the total length of pipe between the blue-handled value and the pressure tank is 30” (12+6+12)

C- Spigot with hose fitting. I drained the pressure tank from here. This tees off the elbow that joins A and B

D- This looks like an overflow that connects to A via what looks like a pressure relief valve. My eye starts to twitch when I see that it opens to the crawl space. It tees off A at the pressure relief valve, goes up 30”, and a 45 degree coupling connects it to a 56” length that opens to the crawl space. (all ¾” sched 40)

E- This is a 24” of 1” Schedule 40 PVC that tees off of A. It is capped. I imagine this is to serve to reduce water hammering?

 

[Reach4]

The pressure relief valve should isolate pipe D, so that will not count.
Pipe E is a something that you are not supposed to to have -- a "dead leg". It should not contribute to the water draining out of C, since it is lower than C.

If you test the water volume at C, how about you stop measuring once the water pressure falls below 35 psi. That should make any water coming in from the well pipes not really contribute to the bucket being filled from the hose connected to C.

Your pipes look more the color of CPVC when compared to the white of the label on the tank.

 

[jbarry]

Pump model number?

As the pump is <1 year old, and the pressure tank ~4 years old, how much larger (GPM and head capacity) is the current pump compared to the pump it replaced?

For a 3/4HP pump in a well with a 60' static level, I anticipate a 22 gallon tank is too small, which would result in excessive cycling, thereby causing rapid/premature wear of the pump, pressure tank, pressure switch, check valve etc.

The pump that went out in fall/2023 was a 1/2 hp 4in. Electric 2-wire, 10GPM, 230V. We knew we would be deepening the well in a few months, so we upgraded the pump at that time so we would not have to do it again when the well was deepened in 5/24.

I don't have the model number (I will have to see if I can find the paperwork), but my understanding is it is a Franklin with all the same specs, only 3/4 hp.

 

[jbarry]

The pressure relief valve should isolate pipe D, so that will not count.
Pipe E is a something that you are not supposed to to have -- a "dead leg". It should not contribute to the water draining out of C, since it is lower than C.

That is what I suspected. D is (or should be) empty, anyway. Once I find out if the pump company will warranty the tank I'll probably chop it off. The whole array is a bit messy anyway. Until I hear back from the pump Co., I'm trying not to touch anything too much to avoid doing something that might void a potential warranty.

My neighbor has the same setup. A few weeks back on Labor day, his family went camping. They returned on Monday only to find a foot of water in his basement. Apparently the section of water main coming into his house broke.

Since these are old pipes, and it looks like repairs have been made and pieced back together, if the pump company does not cover any of this, I am considering relocating the pressure tank to the garage, and replacing with all new pipes.

 

[jbarry]

If you test the water volume at C, how about you stop measuring once the water pressure falls below 35 psi. That should make any water coming in from the well pipes not really contribute to the bottom.

When I drained the tank, I used a 1 gallon jug and did it bit by bit so it took 10 minutes or so (this was much more convenient than using a hose, and I was alone when I did it, so I needed to be at the spigot to turn on/off). Most of it came out under pressure.

I hope to hear back from the pump co sometime today. If I don't hear from them I can measure again this evening or tomorrow morning and see ho much comes out "pre-35 psi"

 

[jbarry]

For a 3/4HP pump in a well with a 60' static level, I anticipate a 22 gallon tank is too small, which would result in excessive cycling, thereby causing rapid/premature wear of the pump, pressure tank, pressure switch, check valve etc.

I had the same thought, too! In fact I asked about that to 2 different techs from the pump co. and another tech from the well drilling co... and they all independently stated the 22 gallon tank should be fine.

That said, I have another neighbor who has his pressure tank in his garage (his house is a split-entry instead of a split-level, so no crawl space). Just from looking at it, it seems to have the same size/shape as my 60gallon air compressor tank.... so it is definitely bigger than the 22g I have in the crawl space. I'm guessing his is somewhere in the 40-50 g range.
(note the pressure-tank-envy, there?)

 

[Reach4]

If re-doing, I would have the pressure switch closer to the pressure tank. It could go onto pipe E, and pipe E could have another drain valve on its end, make it not a dead leg. Note that a pipe length not carrying water does not have a pressure drop.

Rule of thumb, make the pump run for a minute minimum. That can be done with a CSV and a smaller tank. or a a tank that can accept the water. A tank will normally accept about 1/4 of the nominal volume, so if your 10 gpm pump puts out 11 gpm, you would want at least a 44 gallon tank,

After well work, consider sanitizing your well and plumbing.

 

[davidgilbert23]

Hello!

Our well pump is short cycling. the odd bit is the inconsistent way the water pressure drops in the line when water is being used.

Setup:
-This is a residential/single family home
-Pressure tank was replaced about 4 years ago
-Pressure switch is 40/60 and was replaced about 7 years ago (although the switch seems to turn the pump on at about 36psi instead of 40)
-well was just deepened this spring. Static water level is approx. 60'. Pump depth is 105'. Well depth is 149'.
-Submersible well pump is under 1 year old. it is a 3/4 hp. (I believe made by Franklin)

We had a lot of sediment after the well was deepened in May. I suspect this might be a contributing factor?
What I've done: I turned off power to the well, drained the pressure tank, and checked the air pressure. it was at about 33psi, so I increased to 34psi, as the switch is kicking on at 36psi. This didn't change the short-cycling.

I took a video to show what is happening. Hopefully this will help:
video :

video 2:

(this is my first time uploading a video to You tube, so hopefully it works!)

Would this be indicative of a bad pressure tank?

Hello!

It sounds like your well pump is short cycling, and you’ve noticed that the water pressure is dropping inconsistently when water is being used. Based on the setup you provided, it’s possible that the sediment issue you mentioned, which arose after the well was deepened, might be a factor contributing to the problem.

You have already taken steps to address the issue by checking and adjusting the pressure tank’s air pressure, bringing it up to 34psi since the pressure switch is kicking on at 36psi. However, since this adjustment didn’t stop the short cycling, it’s possible that there could be another underlying issue, such as the pressure switch needing calibration or the pump being affected by sediment. It might be worth considering having the system inspected by a professional to ensure everything is functioning correctly, especially after the changes made to your well.