Two quotes for combi boilers for radiant and DHW

[ThinkpadUser7]

I'm in a 1947 house built on a slab with the original Hotstream 192-L and copper pipe radiant heating system. I'm attaching a photo for reference. The water heater behind the boiler is 40 gallons. The house is ~1340 square feet and has 3 bedrooms and 2 full bathrooms. This is in the S.F. Bay Area.

I've been looking into replacing the equipment in that closet and have gotten bids from two reputable places. Any thoughts or advice on what place to pick? The place that uses IBC does very clean / labeled work that's mounted on added wood panels. I like the aesthetics more but I'm not sure that should factor into my decision. I'm not sure why the two bids use different size boilers.

BID 1 (IBC SFC 199)
• 199,000 – 28,000 BTU boiler with electronic spark ignition
• Primary/Secondary plumbing module for space heating
• Descaler cartridge system for domestic inlet into unit
• Caleffi tempering valve domestic
• Caleffi 12 PSI pressure reducing valve with antisiphon backflow preventer
• Watts 30 psi presure relief valve
• Proflow 2.2 gallon hydronic air expansion tank
• Stainless steel expansion tank for domestic
• Weiss pressure/temperature gauge
• Weiss 30 psi gauge for system pressure monitoring
• low pressure cut off switches
• high and low temperature controls
• Venturi combination gas valves/electronic ignition
• B&G Air elimination system
• automatic air vents
• Grundfos Up26-99FC circulating pump
• High pressure valving for purging/testing/service on
all supply and returns – and needed safety and support equipment
• We will install the boilers in the existing mechanical space provided
• We will install a new digital thermostat
• All boiler plumbing will be in copper with wrought copper fittings and 955 leadfree soldered
joints. (Pipe, parts, fittings, unions, electrical, ties
hose bibs, caps, miscellaneous)
• All boiler piping will be insulated with a 1”/3/4” wall thermocel or equal
• All valves will be labeled according to their function

Cost Breakdown:
IBC SFC 199 Combination Boiler w/ taxes,ship $4,520.00
Grundfos UP26-99FC $ 575.00
Primary/secondary header $ 225.00
Caleffi Reducing valve/Backflow preventer $ 225.00
Proflow 2.2 stainless air expansion tank $ 115.00
Small Stainless expansion tank for domestic $ 55.00
High pressure ball valving $ 260.00
Hose Bibbs $ 40.00
Pressure Gauge $ 85.00
Copper pipe plus fittings $1,430.00
Pvc pipe for flue and condensate $ 125.00
Full flow gas flex lines $ 85.00
Galvanized pipe plus fittings for gas line $ 55.00
Electrical with zone relay module $ 200.00
Wood boards and trim $ 550.00
Descaler for domestic input $ 125.00
Bonding ground clamps $ 40.00
Nest Thermostat 24V or 120V high voltage digital $ 270.00
Piping insulation $ 365.00
Uni-strut, Hardware, Labelling plus miscellaneous $ 550.00
Total materials: $9,895.00
Labor to install and preparation crew @15hrs. a piece $5,400.00
Travel $ 100.00
Total cost $15,395.00

BID 2 (VIESMANN B1KE-120)
VIESMANN B1KE-120 COMBINATION BOILER FOR SPACE HEATING AND DHW
-Demo, haul away and dispose hot stream 192-L Boiler, and Rheem 40 gallon water heater.
-Provide and Install Viessmann Vitodens B1KE-120 120,000 BTU 95% Efficient Natural Gas.
-Provide wall mounting bracket and hardware to property secure boiler.
-Intall New primary loop with integrated ECM motor circulating pump.
-Provide and install New expansion tank and water auto-fill valve for closed loop system.
-Provide and install New air separator/air eliminator trim kit.
-Retrofit with type L copper to exiting supply and return radiant heating connection points.
-Provide and install New Poly Flue intake and exhaust through existing roof jack and seal any gaps.
-Provide New gas flex, shut off valve and retrofit gas as needed.
-Provide Electrical modifications as needed to provide 120v.
-Install Condensate Drain with condensate neutralizer to floor drain/side yard.
-Provide and install New DHW mixing valve to hot and cold connection points.
-Preform a combustion analysis measurement of gas concentrations, emission checks and safety.
-Provide and install New Honeywell T6 thermostat for radiant heating.
-Remove existing galvanized manifolds/ Rebuild manifolds with copper and new brass valves.
-Fill and purge, start up and commissioning to factory specifications.
Total cost $14,791.00

 

[Fitter30]

What are your heat emitters and water temp heating system? Any condensing boiler to get to 95% efficiency return water temp has to be 140° or lower above 140° efficiency drops to 87%. The cooler return temp the efficiency goes up.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jeff H Young]

I think i would bury the chicken shit 100 dollar travel in the breakdown Its a bit comical to me but otherwise I cant really comment on the bids

 

[zebu]

I'm in a 1947 house built on a slab with the original Hotstream 192-L and copper pipe radiant heating system. I'm attaching a photo for reference. The water heater behind the boiler is 40 gallons. The house is ~1340 square feet and has 3 bedrooms and 2 full bathrooms. This is in the S.F. Bay Area.

I've been looking into replacing the equipment in that closet and have gotten bids from two reputable places. Any thoughts or advice on what place to pick? The place that uses IBC does very clean / labeled work that's mounted on added wood panels. I like the aesthetics more but I'm not sure that should factor into my decision. I'm not sure why the two bids use different size boilers.

BID 1 (IBC SFC 199)
• 199,000 – 28,000 BTU boiler with electronic spark ignition
• Primary/Secondary plumbing module for space heating
• Descaler cartridge system for domestic inlet into unit
• Caleffi tempering valve domestic
• Caleffi 12 PSI pressure reducing valve with antisiphon backflow preventer
• Watts 30 psi presure relief valve
• Proflow 2.2 gallon hydronic air expansion tank
• Stainless steel expansion tank for domestic
• Weiss pressure/temperature gauge
• Weiss 30 psi gauge for system pressure monitoring
• low pressure cut off switches
• high and low temperature controls
• Venturi combination gas valves/electronic ignition
• B&G Air elimination system
• automatic air vents
• Grundfos Up26-99FC circulating pump
• High pressure valving for purging/testing/service on
all supply and returns – and needed safety and support equipment
• We will install the boilers in the existing mechanical space provided
• We will install a new digital thermostat
• All boiler plumbing will be in copper with wrought copper fittings and 955 leadfree soldered
joints. (Pipe, parts, fittings, unions, electrical, ties
hose bibs, caps, miscellaneous)
• All boiler piping will be insulated with a 1”/3/4” wall thermocel or equal
• All valves will be labeled according to their function

Cost Breakdown:
IBC SFC 199 Combination Boiler w/ taxes,ship $4,520.00
Grundfos UP26-99FC $ 575.00
Primary/secondary header $ 225.00
Caleffi Reducing valve/Backflow preventer $ 225.00
Proflow 2.2 stainless air expansion tank $ 115.00
Small Stainless expansion tank for domestic $ 55.00
High pressure ball valving $ 260.00
Hose Bibbs $ 40.00
Pressure Gauge $ 85.00
Copper pipe plus fittings $1,430.00
Pvc pipe for flue and condensate $ 125.00
Full flow gas flex lines $ 85.00
Galvanized pipe plus fittings for gas line $ 55.00
Electrical with zone relay module $ 200.00
Wood boards and trim $ 550.00
Descaler for domestic input $ 125.00
Bonding ground clamps $ 40.00
Nest Thermostat 24V or 120V high voltage digital $ 270.00
Piping insulation $ 365.00
Uni-strut, Hardware, Labelling plus miscellaneous $ 550.00
Total materials: $9,895.00
Labor to install and preparation crew @15hrs. a piece $5,400.00
Travel $ 100.00
Total cost $15,395.00

BID 2 (VIESMANN B1KE-120)
VIESMANN B1KE-120 COMBINATION BOILER FOR SPACE HEATING AND DHW
-Demo, haul away and dispose hot stream 192-L Boiler, and Rheem 40 gallon water heater.
-Provide and Install Viessmann Vitodens B1KE-120 120,000 BTU 95% Efficient Natural Gas.
-Provide wall mounting bracket and hardware to property secure boiler.
-Intall New primary loop with integrated ECM motor circulating pump.
-Provide and install New expansion tank and water auto-fill valve for closed loop system.
-Provide and install New air separator/air eliminator trim kit.
-Retrofit with type L copper to exiting supply and return radiant heating connection points.
-Provide and install New Poly Flue intake and exhaust through existing roof jack and seal any gaps.
-Provide New gas flex, shut off valve and retrofit gas as needed.
-Provide Electrical modifications as needed to provide 120v.
-Install Condensate Drain with condensate neutralizer to floor drain/side yard.
-Provide and install New DHW mixing valve to hot and cold connection points.
-Preform a combustion analysis measurement of gas concentrations, emission checks and safety.
-Provide and install New Honeywell T6 thermostat for radiant heating.
-Remove existing galvanized manifolds/ Rebuild manifolds with copper and new brass valves.
-Fill and purge, start up and commissioning to factory specifications.
Total cost $14,791.00

Use bid 1 info line items against bid 2 and vice versa. Your aim is to determine if they overlooked something in their proposal.

 

[John Gayewski]

Whichever has better warranty and better emergency service department. One of the better contractors locally is the most expensive, but they have the best 24 hour service. It's worth a little more for emergency service you can count on.

 

[Fitter30]

Is there name tag on your boiler shows btu input or output? If not can clock the gas meter for boiler input. What boiler temp do you run?

 

[Fitter30]

Viessmann has a better turndown 19,900 btu verses 28k btu. Never used either brand.

 

[emd36]

First bid BS. Much of the specs are part of the boiler itself which is not clear. Using pre assembled primary secondary. Second bid is building it. Comment about 140° return is not true for radiant. Heats at lower temps. My return is 20° lower than output which is what is needed for high efficiency. Neither one seems to be temp modulated with outdoor sensor. Have to look at the boiler specs. In CA I think the smaller unit would be sufficient. Plus it relaxes your outmoded water heater. Contractors like to over heat which is less efficient. Even in warmer CA you could improve your insulation and sealing first. I use 120,000 combi in Colorado and it is sufficient for 0° design temp. But consider an air to water heat pump too. They would work well in CA with no below 0° temps. And you eliminate or reduce household gas.
Best idea is to have a manual J calculation. To approximate actual load. Your green energy consultants will help with that. Check with your electric company for consultants.

 

[Fitter30]

First bid BS. Much of the specs are part of the boiler itself which is not clear. Using pre assembled primary secondary. Second bid is building it. Comment about 140° return is not true for radiant. Heats at lower temps. My return is 20° lower than output which is what is needed for high efficiency. Neither one seems to be temp modulated with outdoor sensor. Have to look at the boiler specs. In CA I think the smaller unit would be sufficient. Plus it relaxes your outmoded water heater. Contractors like to over heat which is less efficient. Even in warmer CA you could improve your insulation and sealing first. I use 120,000 combi in Colorado and it is sufficient for 0° design temp. But consider an air to water heat pump too. They would work well in CA with no below 0° temps. And you eliminate or reduce household gas.
Best idea is to have a manual J calculation. To approximate actual load. Your green energy consultants will help with that. Check with your electric company for consultants.

Comment about 140° return is not true for radiant. This house was built 1947 or 46. 77 year old house. Finish trade school in 1971 worked on houses 1960's with copper in concrete radiate with cast boilers and they didn't run 100° water can't remember what they ran but a cast boiler would rot with 100° temp do to condensing and cold return water.