Sand Point vs. Case Well

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Spudder61

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Hello, I have a three-season cabin in Central Wisconsin. Water is provided by a sand point well approximately 20 feet deep, enclosed in an insulated pump house. Have used light bulbs to extend water usage late into November and sometimes December. Pushed it too far one year causing the 2 inch galvanized pipe to split about 2 feet below where it enters the ground. Currently the 2 inch galvanized pipe enters the ground (inside the pump house) about 18 inches below the ground level (outside the pump house). Water pressure and quality is very good during the summer months, albeit high on the iron side.

I am trying to fully winterize the water system (make it full-year usable). My plan is to move the JetPump and water tank into the cottage (where it is climate controlled…kept above freezing).

My two questions are:

Does it make sense (and will it accomplish freeze proofing) to dig out and around the 2 inch galvanized pipe inside the pump house to a safe level below the frost line (somewhere around 48-60 inches deep and 10-12 inches on each side (yes a lot of manual labor) with the sides and bottom insulated (including the floor of the box where the pipe will transition from the earth to the box within the pump house)?

Can you introduce a 90 into the 2 inch galvanized pipe to accommodate the horizontal run (approximately 2 feet after the 90) into the cottage and the relocated JetPump and not suffer any loss of flow from the pump itself?

Bonus Question…lol…

Do they make a quite rate JetPump? The one in the pump house is an old but good pump but also let’s you know when it’s running.

Thanks.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
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A sand point and jet pump is much less expensive if you can make it work. But you really can't elbow down from the sand point then back up at the jet pump. There should not be any high points in the suction where air can accumulate. The jet pump itself should be the high point in the suction to draw out any air in the line. You also do not want the suction line to be any longer than necessary. Shorter is better. Any pump like a jet pump with an air cooled motor will be loud.

PK1A jet pump with sand point.jpg
 

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Cary Austin
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If a drilled well with 4" or larger casing can be used, a pitless adapter can be added below the frost line. This makes the outside part all below the frost level. A submersible pump would be silent and can push water as far as you want to the pressure tank and switch in the house.

I find it almost impossible to keep a well house from freezing. All the electric heat in the world doesn't help when the power goes off.

PK1A sub pitless house.jpg
 

Spudder61

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Thank you gentlemen.

OK the reason why I’m even considering using the sand point well (with all it‘s potential issues…but yet solvable for the most part) versus a 6“ case well with the pump and the tank in the well casing with a 50’ run (below the frost line) to the cabin is that I was told by two of the three folks I had out for a visit, chat and estimate, that they have seen many failures with this system (the pump and tank in the casing). This caused me to pause and re-look at enhancing the existing sand point well system.

So what’s “truth”. I understand that you can always get unlucky with an appliance or anything you buy these days that are mechanical but are the pumps as well as, the tanks as a general rule, “reliable”. I was clearly given the impression (and I know it could have been for a number of other reasons as well), that these systems are just troublesome and generally require pump and/tank changeouts due to failures.

Are there “best in class” in casing well pumps and tanks that if you can afford them (and I know the saying “you get what you pay for”) then by all means do so?
 

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Cary Austin
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Being in the pump industry for over a half century now, I no longer believe "you get what you pay for". I now believe the more you pay the more you get screwed. Some of the most expensive water pump systems, like with VFD control are the least reliable and shortest lived.

I actually own the patent on the in well pressure tank, and agree the "tank" in the well is not "reliable". However, a submersible pump can be very reliable. Jet pumps or subs, cycling on and off is what destroys most pumps. Jet pumps have a larger diameter fan cooled motor which can take a lot more cycling on/off than a submersible. By eliminating the cycling on and off both type pumps will be much more reliable and last 400% to600% longer.

You can even use one of the really inexpensive pumps like the Hallmark 1HP for about 170 bucks. Even these pumps are lasting a long time when controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve and do not cycle on and off repeatedly. With a submersible and a pitless adapter there is nothing to freeze and the CSV and tank can be in the house, which makes a much more dependable system than the in well tank.

 

Spudder61

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Being in the pump industry for over a half century now, I no longer believe "you get what you pay for". I now believe the more you pay the more you get screwed. Some of the most expensive water pump systems, like with VFD control are the least reliable and shortest lived.

I actually own the patent on the in well pressure tank, and agree the "tank" in the well is not "reliable". However, a submersible pump can be very reliable. Jet pumps or subs, cycling on and off is what destroys most pumps. Jet pumps have a larger diameter fan cooled motor which can take a lot more cycling on/off than a submersible. By eliminating the cycling on and off both type pumps will be much more reliable and last 400% to600% longer.

You can even use one of the really inexpensive pumps like the Hallmark 1HP for about 170 bucks. Even these pumps are lasting a long time when controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve and do not cycle on and off repeatedly. With a submersible and a pitless adapter there is nothing to freeze and the CSV and tank can be in the house, which makes a much more dependable system than the in well tank.

Thank you very much
Being in the pump industry for over a half century now, I no longer believe "you get what you pay for". I now believe the more you pay the more you get screwed. Some of the most expensive water pump systems, like with VFD control are the least reliable and shortest lived.

I actually own the patent on the in well pressure tank, and agree the "tank" in the well is not "reliable". However, a submersible pump can be very reliable. Jet pumps or subs, cycling on and off is what destroys most pumps. Jet pumps have a larger diameter fan cooled motor which can take a lot more cycling on/off than a submersible. By eliminating the cycling on and off both type pumps will be much more reliable and last 400% to600% longer.

You can even use one of the really inexpensive pumps like the Hallmark 1HP for about 170 bucks. Even these pumps are lasting a long time when controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve and do not cycle on and off repeatedly. With a submersible and a pitless adapter there is nothing to freeze and the CSV and tank can be in the house, which makes a much more dependable system than the
Being in the pump industry for over a half century now, I no longer believe "you get what you pay for". I now believe the more you pay the more you get screwed. Some of the most expensive water pump systems, like with VFD control are the least reliable and shortest lived.

I actually own the patent on the in well pressure tank, and agree the "tank" in the well is not "reliable". However, a submersible pump can be very reliable. Jet pumps or subs, cycling on and off is what destroys most pumps. Jet pumps have a larger diameter fan cooled motor which can take a lot more cycling on/off than a submersible. By eliminating the cycling on and off both type pumps will be much more reliable and last 400% to600% longer.

You can even use one of the really inexpensive pumps like the Hallmark 1HP for about 170 bucks. Even these pumps are lasting a long time when controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve and do not cycle on and off repeatedly. With a submersible and a pitless adapter there is nothing to freeze and the CSV and tank can be in the house, which makes a much more dependable system than the in well tank.

Thank you very much, Cary….and very informative video.
Appreciate your time in educating me on this subject.
 

Fitter30

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Thank you gentlemen.

OK the reason why I’m even considering using the sand point well (with all it‘s potential issues…but yet solvable for the most part) versus a 6“ case well with the pump and the tank in the well casing with a 50’ run (below the frost line) to the cabin is that I was told by two of the three folks I had out for a visit, chat and estimate, that they have seen many failures with this system (the pump and tank in the casing). This caused me to pause and re-look at enhancing the existing sand point well system.

So what’s “truth”. I understand that you can always get unlucky with an appliance or anything you buy these days that are mechanical but are the pumps as well as, the tanks as a general rule, “reliable”. I was clearly given the impression (and I know it could have been for a number of other reasons as well), that these systems are just troublesome and generally require pump and/tank changeouts due to failures.

Are there “best in class” in casing well pumps and tanks that if you can afford them (and I know the saying “you get what you pay for”) then by all means do so?
Having run service in the hvac industrial and commercial for 40 years retired 12. Pump failure usually is caused by miss application by running out of the pump curve or cycling to much. Vfd failures mainly dirt/ heat out of site out of mind. They need to blown out at least once a year or more. Since all residential is single phase drives are three phase always best to pick a drive with more than twice the amp draw of the pump drive will run cooler.
 
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