Recent pressure drop

[Cobra1365]

We had a new well sunk in Jan of ’20.

Since then, I added a whole house filtration system because I noticed an increase in sediment from the new well. Everything has seemed to settle down and when changing filters now, I see little to no sediment.

I did start getting a a water hammer noise earlier this year and arrestors made now change (Separate thread).

Now (yesterday) I noticed the water drop off to a trickle when the washer was running. My wife said she noticed he sink faucet recently started doing that if anything else was running.

I went into the crawl space and the tank is pressurized at ~40PSI when the pump kicks on. They have the switch set to come on at 35 and shut off at 55. So, first thing I is why is tank pressurized higher than cut in? And second is why such an odd cut on/off setting? (20 gal tank)

Also, while tank is holding pressure, I watched the system gauge slowly bleed off ~2 psi every 5 mins.

So, is that a footer valve stuck open or the tank over pressure?

No check valve in crawl.

 

[Cobra1365]

So, today, I had a chance to investigate further.

Shut off water and pump.
Drained tank.
Tank held 38 psi.
Did a slosh test and didn’t hear any water.
Did a tap test and only got clanks, no thuds.

Opened water line and started pump. Pressurized to ~55 psi and immediately dropped to 50 psi when pump stopped. Stabilized for a bit and then started a very slow creep downward.

So, I’m thinking not the tank?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

When the pump is not running, and the water pressure is higher than the air precharge, the air pressure will read about the same as the water pressure. The main use for this is to compare calibration between the air and water pressure gauges. Air precharge is always checked with the water pressure zero. You usually set the air precharge to be 2 psi less than the cut-in pressure.

Let's discuss water at a trickle. What is the pressure gauge reading during that time? Ready for some troubleshooting? Get a multimeter with a clamp-around amps reading function. We will want the amps thru one wire of the pressure switch when the pump runs normally, and the current under one of these trickle events.

And be able to measure voltage between terminals 2 and 3 of the pressure switch in that trickle condition.

Regarding the 35/55 pressure switch setting, that is about what mine is set for. My reason probably differs from the people who did yours. These switches are adjustable. Turn the nut on the big spring CW to increase both cut-in and cut out. CW 3.5 turns is about 10 psi.

To be honest, I did not really notice a difference during use vs 30/50 psi. Other people do report they notice a difference.

So let's discuss

It is normal for the water pressure to relax some after the pump shuts off. I suspect that is at least partly due to the diaphragm relaxing.

20 gallon pressure tank is on the small side. You would like to run at least 1 minute each time, and you probably don't always come close to that.

 

[Cobra1365]

Partially solved my issue!

Turns out when I last changed my water filters, I did not change the carbon filter!

I say partially because now that the overall water pressure is good, I still have an issue at a single tap. In the Master bath, after changing filters, I turned on the sink and, as expected, there was some trapped air. It worked its way out. But, the sink faucet starts at a trickle and never reaches the pressure of any other faucet. When I turn the faucet off, it slowly shuts down instead of just turning off. The shower, toilet all are fine…just the sink. No other issue in the house.

 

[Reach4]

Remove the aerator for testing. Clean the aerator if removing the aerator helps.

Same symptoms with aerator removed? In that case, compare cold-only vs hot-only.

There are further next steps if those two tests do not bear fruit.

Did you get a water pressure gauge, or did you just re-think the path?

 

[Cobra1365]

Remove the aerator for testing. Clean the aerator if removing the aerator helps.

Same symptoms with aerator removed? In that case, compare cold-only vs hot-only.

There are further next steps if those two tests do not bear fruit.

Did you get a water pressure gauge, or did you just re-think the path?

Sorry, been really busy with another project!

yes, got the pressure gauge and I‘m at a steady 55psi.

pressure at both bathroom sinks is low…hot and cold.

tried to remove aerators and either I’ve lost my mojo or they are not removable! I was afraid I was going to break something!

water hammer is still occurring too. When washer is running hammer is worse and so is pressure drop.

the “thunk” seems to come from near the master bedroom shower valve as the washer is running, toilets flush or bathroom sinks are turned on/off.

can hot water heater temp cause water hammer?

I’ve tried bypassing filter system, I have arrestors at both toilets and on the washer…no change.

thanks.

 

[Bannerman]

You mentioned a 'foot valve' which should signify your pump is is an above ground jet type, not a submersible (down within the well).

Since each well system utilizes a pressure tank, the PT will already act as a large water hammer arrestor. Unfortunately, water hammer travels rapidly, so regardless of the number of arrestors installed, while they may somewhat absorb some of the pulse, the majority of the pulse will usually pass directly past each arrestor's tee fitting and will carry on throughout the entire plumbing system.

Is the foot valve the only check valve in the system, or are there additional check valves before or after the pump? Water hammer is often a result of using multiple check valves. The foot valve should be the only check valve that is installed.

Is the pressure switch sensing pressure directly at the pump or from the tank Tee? Many jet pumps include a pressure switch and gauge connected directly to the pump. Any flow restriction after the pump can cause the pressure switch and gauge to sense higher pressure while the pump is running, but that pressure will often immediately drop lower once the pump is shut off and the pressure equalizes within the system. If your pressure switch is connected to the pump, suggest relocating the switch & gauge or replumb the feed line to sense the pressure directly from the tank Tee.

Also suggest removing the pressure switch and gauge to ensure the pipe nipple/tube and the connections at both ends are not partially blocked with sediment or other debris. If the pressure switch & gauge connections are partially blocked, then the switch and gauge will not sense pressure change as rapidly as change is occuring, which can cause some of the symptoms you are experiencing.

While 10" cartridge type filters are often marketed as 'Whole Home' filters, depending on the contaminants that the filter is to remove, a 10" cartridge is often too small for point-of-entry applications, but better suited for point-of-use (one faucet) supplies.

Depending on the size and quantity of the debris in your well water, a sediment cartridge filter with 25 micron or higher rating, may not restrict flow too much, even after filtering out a substantial amount of sediment, whereas a lower micron rating may cause too much flow restriction, particularly when partially filled with debris.

Carbon filtration media does not function as a simple filter, but relies on a process called 'adsorption' to cause chemicals & contaminats to collect within the pores of the media. For carbon to be effective, the water must be permitted to be in contact with the media for sufficient time to permit adsorption to occur.

Many carbon cartridges utilize 'Carbon Block' which regardless of the cartridge size, is not suitable for point-of-entry applications since water flow through the solid block of carbon will be too restricted.

The provide sufficient contact time to be most effective, the flow rate through the carbon media should be 1-3 gallons per minute, per cubic feet of carbon media. A flow range is specified as some contaminants are more difficult to remove than others, and will therefore require longer contact time (lower flow rate) through the media before full removal is realized.

Due to the variable flow rates occuring to supply an entire home, a backwashing carbon filter system containing at minimum 1.5 ft3 granular activated carbon (GAC) is recommended. The system is similar in size as a water softener, but will not require brine or a brine tank since the carbon media will only need to be periodically backwashed to flush out accumulated debris and to reclassify the granular media to eliminate channeling through the media.

 

[Reach4]

yes, got the pressure gauge and I‘m at a steady 55psi.

pressure at both bathroom sinks is low…hot and cold.

Watch the pressure at the WH drain WHILE you run the tub spout full blast. That could be cold water flowing, and the test would still be meaningful.

 

[Cobra1365]

Wow! Thats a lot to digest!

I guess I misspoke. The well is indeed a submerged pump, not a jet pump.

This is the filter system I am using…
https://www.amazon.com/iSpring-WGB3...anese/dp/B01FI3BLYM?tag=ispringwate03-20&th=1

Along with this spin down filter just before it.


https://www.amazon.com/iSpring-Flus...b8-b104-c8efa01ea358&pd_rd_i=B072YVNRZN&psc=1


Reach4,
Are you saying connect the gauge to the drain spout of the water heater then turn on the (in our case shower) faucet full? What will that tell me?

Thanks!

 

[Fitter30]

When the pump is not running, and the water pressure is higher than the air precharge, the air pressure will read about the same as the water pressure. The main use for this is to compare calibration between the air and water pressure gauges. Air precharge is always checked with the water pressure zero. You usually set the air precharge to be 2 psi less than the cut-in pressure.

Let's discuss water at a trickle. What is the pressure gauge reading during that time? Ready for some troubleshooting? Get a multimeter with a clamp-around amps reading function. We will want the amps thru one wire of the pressure switch when the pump runs normally, and the current under one of these trickle events.

And be able to measure voltage between terminals 2 and 3 of the pressure switch in that trickle condition.

Regarding the 35/55 pressure switch setting, that is about what mine is set for. My reason probably differs from the people who did yours. These switches are adjustable. Turn the nut on the big spring CW to increase both cut-in and cut out. CW 3.5 turns is about 10 psi.

To be honest, I did not really notice a difference during use vs 30/50 psi. Other people do report they notice a difference.

So let's discuss

It is normal for the water pressure to relax some after the pump shuts off. I suspect that is at least partly due to the diaphragm relaxing.
. I.
20 gallon pressure tank is on the small side. You would like to run at least 1 minute each time, and you probably don't always come close to that.

Have you check all the faucet aerators ? Between both filter systems theres's 15-20lb pressure drop. Expansion tank won't slow the water down. A 20 tank only holds 2 or 3 gallons. Guess there isn't a outside hose bib before filters to check flow. Like other said need a clamp on amp meter. Possibility the pump has a screen and is getting blocked when pumps off debris fall off.

 

[Reach4]

Reach4,
Are you saying connect the gauge to the drain spout of the water heater then turn on the (in our case shower) faucet full? What will that tell me?

Yes, tho a connecting to a laundry tap would tell the story too.

The purpose is to see what the pressure is at that point while water is being used at its normal rate while you perceive low pressure. To look for pressure drops, you have to have the flow.

You could turn on the tub spout, and then run back to the gauge. You could alternatively point your cellphone at the gauge, start shooting a movie, go turn on the tub water for a few seconds, and then go back and review the movie.

If there is no water flowing, even a very clogged filter cartridge will not cause a pressure drop. We want to measure the pressure while the water is flowing. We want a spot for the pressure gauge that is after the softener and any filtering. The drain for the WH is such a spot.

 

[Cobra1365]

Ok, here’s a vid of the pressure gauge. I know you said connect it to the WH. But, I remembered I had this hose bib easily accessible right after the filter and conditioning system that I use to clean and service the soda ash tank.
I connected it, opened the tap, then went to the far end of the house and flushed the master toilet and turned on the sink tap, since that’s when we usually see the drop in pressure (other than the washer running).

I was really surprised to see that far of a drop! Plus, it only went back up to 40psi.

I bypassed the filter system and pressure was the same. So, it’s not that. Additionally, I went outside and checked it at the hose bib…still only 40PSI. You’ll notice though it was at 55 at the beginning of the vid. So, something is making it so it takes a long time to build pressure back up.

is that a symptom of a clogged pump screen or a bad bladder tank (even though I checked the tank and everything appeared ok)?

Thanks

 

[Cobra1365]

Yes, tho a connecting to a laundry tap would tell the story too.

The purpose is to see what the pressure is at that point while water is being used at its normal rate while you perceive low pressure. To look for pressure drops, you have to have the flow.

You could turn on the tub spout, and then run back to the gauge. You could alternatively point your cellphone at the gauge, start shooting a movie, go turn on the tub water for a few seconds, and then go back and review the movie.

If there is no water flowing, even a very clogged filter cartridge will not cause a pressure drop. We want to measure the pressure while the water is flowing. We want a spot for the pressure gauge that is after the softener and any filtering. The drain for the WH is such a spot.

See above post.

 

[Cobra1365]

Gave up the guessing games and called the guys that put in the well. Turns out everything is still under warranty!

Couldn’t find any problems and despite what that video shows, nothing of the sort happened today! Everything worked like it’s supposed to! Sort of like that noise in you car that never happens when you take it in to the shop!

So, I’ll continue to monitor. I’ve got two more years of warranty on the system….