Pressure Tank Plumbing Genius Think Tank

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Valveman

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Water Worker: Malleable Iron connection (with stainless steel insert) vs stainless steel connection for Well-X-Trol. If somebody is handling one of these, check that connection with a magnet. Assuming that is non-magnetic stainless, that would be an easy difference verification.

Maybe I will take an extendable magnet to a display unit in a store.
That does sound like something they may do to cheapen the box store brand. They all used to be iron. SS is fairly recent with all the new regulations. The SS insert sounds like a good idea and maybe enough as the water doesn't touch the outside.
 

dryhero

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Didn’t know you could use a FLIR camera to see a bladder in a tank? Didn’t even have down hole camera and cell phones where still a new thing when I was in the pump business.

You should not need to close that valve to regulate flow to the heat pump. There should be a flow regulating valve on each heat pump that will only also so much through, no matter if that ball valve is wide open. You maybe even starving the heat pump for flow. But again, all the problems with the failed bladders in the tank point to a tremendous number of cycles.

The banging and booming is probably because you have water on the air side of the bladder tank. This causes the torn bladder to seal over the inlet/outlet hole, especially after adding more air. It is like having too much air in the bladder tank, as the bladder plugs the inlet/outlet hole before the pump starts, causing the water hammer and booming you hear.
Dang VM! That's exactly what was happening. I was able to get some more water between the bladder and inlet, now the tanks are working closer to design...for now. I met with my retired plumbing/well contractor Friday. He didn't have an answer for the pressure trampoline. Had a change of heart even before your post.

No doubt I'm an undesirable client. It's just that much of what I do for living is a result of minor failures or oversights. Preventive maintenance mindset these days. The check valve and tee look original (1983). I suggested to ret'd plumber that we replace them while we're at it. He was not thrilled. I get it, some clients ask me to do things that are unnecessary, but not wrong. But I rarely so no because I'm grateful for their business.

Q: Is the 1 GPM bypass on the CSV configurable? Can the flow rate be increased to be more pressure tank friendly? Thanks again!
 
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dryhero

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Thanks for the compliments. No cable anymore. Streaming these days. Lol! Still streaming but think I have seen everything already. Sort of semi-retired. So, when not trying to keep up with the grand kid, nothing I like to do more than help people with their water systems. Fixed my first water well pump for a neighbor J. O. Dane in 1968. Never forgot it, and still doing it 55 years later. Came up with Cycle Stop Valves in 1993 as a way to solve many of the problems I saw with pump systems, and still doing that 30 years later.

Having started at such an early age all of my teachers, mentors, even co-workers were older than me. Unfortunately that means I have seen literally hundreds of good pump men and well drillers pass over the years. Many of them had forgotten more about pumps than I will ever know. I tried to do the Vulcan mind meld on them when I had the chance. Lol! These forums are a way for me to pass on any knowledge I soaked in from all of those who have passed, hopefully even after I have passed.

Sorry for the rant. But now I will spend some time writing up answers to your many questions as heat pumps are one of my favorite topics.:)
Sure I'm sucking up here, but I knew there was an obsession with your work. Legendary.
 

dryhero

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Sizing for a heat pump is not in most pump guys wheelhouse. That is probably the most common size pump used in the area, and one he had on the truck. It would be great if you had’4-5 houses, a large irrigation system, or a heat pump than uses 20 GPM. There is really nothing wrong with having the capability of using 20 GPM, even though a house rarely uses more than 5 GPM. You just need large enough pressure tank(s) to keep the cycling to a minimum. You could also use a CSV with a small or large pressure tank(s). Even though the CSV may cause the electric bill to go up a bit with a heat pump, it could be well worth it for other reasons.

There is a lot of science to this, and there are also a lot of misconceptions of how pumps work out there. But a good pump guy is one who will show up on New Years day, even though it is really cold, with enough supplies in the truck to get your water going, and not overcharge when he is done. If you want to get technical about efficiency and other things it needs to be done long before you open the faucet to no water and say “crap”. Lol!
I do have respect for service contractors. I've sacrificed a lot of family time and 24/7/365 gets more challenging every year. We all drink from the same trough and our toughest battles are often of the mind. As Patton said, when you're going through hell, don't stop!

Phone rings, sigh, put a smile in your voice, answer and tell them you're on the way. Oh, and apologize to the wife, again.
 

dryhero

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There is no free lunch! Anything other than running a pump at full speed and at it best efficiency point (BEP) is a waste of energy. There is no magical variable speed drive (VFD) or any other control including the CSV that is going to make a pump any more efficient. The back pressure from a CSV certainly makes the amps drop almost the same as when reducing the speed with a VFD. However, even though the amps to spin the pump and motor are reduced, both the VFD and CSV make the pump produce fewer gallons per kilowatt used. There really is no more efficient way to pump water than to run a pump at full speed and at its best efficiency point.

Without a VFD or CSV and using a pressure tank only for pump control, the pump is either running at its best efficiency point or it is off and using zero power. For this reason, considering power use alone, there really is nothing wrong with using a 1.5HP pump when the heat pump only needs a 1/2HP worth of water. The 1.5HP is only running 1/3rd of the time, which is still only a 1/2HP load on the electric bill. However, as you have seen, even with large pressure tanks the pump cycles on and off many, many times per day. This cycling destroys pressure tanks, pressure switches, check valves, and greatly shortens the life of the pump/motor as well as any control boxes. For this reason, it may be worth a little loss of efficiency to stop the cycling and make everything last many times longer. Using a CSV would also let you start off with a couple thousand dollars less in pressure tanks, which makes up for a lot of the electric bill for years to come.

When using a Cycle Stop Valve on a well pump with a Geo heat pump, sizing the pump as close to the total load will make it very efficient. Choosing a pump with a good drop in horsepower when restricted will help even more. There are also ways to use the discharge water from the Geo to feed the house, which cuts the total demand for GPM in half. But that is a story all of it’s own, and I have described it in writing in a couple of places.

As far as protecting the pump and using soft start/stop, the CSV is still the best way to do that. Eliminating the cycling is the best way to protect the pump. The CSV also gives the pump a mechanical soft start and soft stop. Starting a pump against a closed or almost closed valve as with a CSV, and starting the pump against as much pressure as possible greatly decreases the duration part of in-rush starting current. And while a soft stop doesn’t really help a pump in any way, abruptly stopping the flow can cause water hammer. The CSV shuts down to 1 GPM to fill the tank before the pump shuts off. This makes the check valve only open the thickness of a piece of paper, and there is no water hammer on shut off.

The CSV is just a valve and does the mechanical soft start/stop with the pump/motor running at full speed. It is hard to electronically soft start or stop a pump as with a VFD since the motor thrust bearing needs at least 50% speed to be lubricated and cooled properly. The motor must get up to at least 50% speed and decrease from 50% speed in less than 1 second to prevent bearing damage. This makes the mechanical soft start/stop of the CSV much better for the pump than the electronic soft start/stop of a VFD.

If there is any possibility of pumping the well dry, a dry well protector like the Cycle Sensor which reads motor amps is also good protection. The Cycle Sensor also shuts the pump down if it rapid cycles, like if the CSV fails for any reason. But the Cycle Sensor is just secondary protection as the Cycle Stop Valve is what is doing the work preventing cycling to begin with.
"There are also ways to use the discharge water from the Geo to feed the house, which cuts the total demand for GPM in half. But that is a story all of it’s own, and I have described it in writing in a couple of places."
Where can I see more?
 

dryhero

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One more opinion, please?

- Service is 1.25", transitions to 1" after check valve
- One tank has 1" copper connecting to 1.25" inlet
- Other tank has 1.25" copper connecting to 1.25" inlet

Question: Should everything at the bottom this, from the service to both tanks be 1.25"? Or is the 1" reduction actually beneficial by throttling the pump? Or does any of this matter? Plumbing is HARD!
 

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Reach4

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You know, you can edit your posts.

You can get a CSV with a 3 gpm bypass, but the pump would be going on and off as you take your 2 gpm shower.
 

Valveman

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Q: Is the 1 GPM bypass on the CSV configurable? Can the flow rate be increased to be more pressure tank friendly? Thanks again!
The 1 GPM bypass in the CSV is very "pressure tank friendly", no matter what size tank you have. The bypass in the CSV is designed to be the minimum safe flow for the pump. We have larger GPM bypasses on larger CSV's, which are made for larger pumps. But a 2HP or smaller pump can safely operate at about 1 GPM flow, so that is the size bypass in the smaller CSV's. The bypass in this CSV actually changes on its own from 0.4 GPM to as much as 1.6 GPM, depending on the amount of back pressure from your pump. Pumps with a higher back pressure need more GPM to stay cool, and vice versa. The CSV adjust the bypass minimum flow according to the needs of the pump. See attached chart.

As Reach said, if you use a CSV with a 3 GPM bypass, the pump will cycle on/off when using a 2.5 GPM shower. The pump will not cycle and the shower will have strong constant pressure with a 1 GPM bypass in the CSV.

The 1 GPM bypass of the CSV will also work with any size pressure tank. With those two huge tanks you would want the CSV1A set at 59 PSI when using a 40/60 pressure switch. In this way the CSV does nothing until your tanks are almost full and the pressure is at 59 PSI. The CSV would then hold 59 PSI constant for as long as the shower, heat pump, or sprinkler is on. When all the taps are closed, the CSV only has to put the last couple of gallons in those tanks, which only takes a couple minutes, and the pump goes off at 60 PSI.

Differential Pressure chart.jpg
 

Valveman

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One more opinion, please?

- Service is 1.25", transitions to 1" after check valve
- One tank has 1" copper connecting to 1.25" inlet
- Other tank has 1.25" copper connecting to 1.25" inlet

Question: Should everything at the bottom this, from the service to both tanks be 1.25"? Or is the 1" reduction actually beneficial by throttling the pump? Or does any of this matter? Plumbing is HARD!
You do not really want to "throttle" the flow to the tank, but 1" won't do that and is still fine.
 

Valveman

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"There are also ways to use the discharge water from the Geo to feed the house, which cuts the total demand for GPM in half. But that is a story all of it’s own, and I have described it in writing in a couple of places."
Where can I see more?
Here is where I wrote up how my heat pump works back in 2007. Looks like I updated it in 2012. Need to update again as things are still working fine.

 

dryhero

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The 1 GPM bypass in the CSV is very "pressure tank friendly", no matter what size tank you have. The bypass in the CSV is designed to be the minimum safe flow for the pump. We have larger GPM bypasses on larger CSV's, which are made for larger pumps. But a 2HP or smaller pump can safely operate at about 1 GPM flow, so that is the size bypass in the smaller CSV's. The bypass in this CSV actually changes on its own from 0.4 GPM to as much as 1.6 GPM, depending on the amount of back pressure from your pump. Pumps with a higher back pressure need more GPM to stay cool, and vice versa. The CSV adjust the bypass minimum flow according to the needs of the pump. See attached chart.

As Reach said, if you use a CSV with a 3 GPM bypass, the pump will cycle on/off when using a 2.5 GPM shower. The pump will not cycle and the shower will have strong constant pressure with a 1 GPM bypass in the CSV.

The 1 GPM bypass of the CSV will also work with any size pressure tank. With those two huge tanks you would want the CSV1A set at 59 PSI when using a 40/60 pressure switch. In this way the CSV does nothing until your tanks are almost full and the pressure is at 59 PSI. The CSV would then hold 59 PSI constant for as long as the shower, heat pump, or sprinkler is on. When all the taps are closed, the CSV only has to put the last couple of gallons in those tanks, which only takes a couple minutes, and the pump goes off at 60 PSI.

View attachment 90654
Alrighty then. This all makes sense when I watch the simulation, but I have trouble truly comprehending/believing in my mind.

Pump: Goulds 18GS15422C 1.5HP (2 wire)
Will be using both new tanks
Will be replacing check valve
Want to replace old tank tee...maybe 1.25" SS Boshart?

QUESTIONS:
1. What CSV would I need? PRV1A? Positive 1 GPM is best?
2. Lifespan/quality of the CSV?
3. What tank tee would work with this?
4. What union material? i.e., do I have to worry about dissimilar metals with SS CSV?
5. I have 40 year old copper supply line, about 50' - 60' run...all cool there? I've read your older posts, I know it should be fine.
6. I know you won't like this, but would piping in an additional bleeder loop be a crime to the CSV?

Thx! I really do appreciate the help from the forum.
 

Valveman

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Alrighty then. This all makes sense when I watch the simulation, but I have trouble truly comprehending/believing in my mind.

Pump: Goulds 18GS15422C 1.5HP (2 wire)
Will be using both new tanks
Will be replacing check valve
Want to replace old tank tee...maybe 1.25" SS Boshart?

QUESTIONS:
1. What CSV would I need? PRV1A? Positive 1 GPM is best?
2. Lifespan/quality of the CSV?
3. What tank tee would work with this?
4. What union material? i.e., do I have to worry about dissimilar metals with SS CSV?
5. I have 40 year old copper supply line, about 50' - 60' run...all cool there? I've read your older posts, I know it should be fine.
6. I know you won't like this, but would piping in an additional bleeder loop be a crime to the CSV?

Thx! I really do appreciate the help from the forum.
With an 18 GPM pump you will loose 7 PSI for every 100' of 1" pipe. A short piece of 1" is not going to be noticed. And that 7 PSI per 100' is at 18 GPM. With a CSV it will probably never see more than 5-10 GPM flow, which makes friction loss a moot point.
Remove and do not replace the above ground check valve unless you just want water hammer and all the problems that goes with?

#1 You would need the CSV1A.
#2 Don't know. Oldest versions of CSV's are 30 years old and still working. Sand will shorten the life somewhat though.
#3 Lol! You really don't even need a tank tee or either of those big tanks if you screw a 10 gallon tank into the 3/4 port on the CSV1A. With two tanks you really only need 1 tank tee for the pressure switch and other connections. The other tank can just be teed into the line with pipe.
#4 With Teflon tape there is very little connectivity anyway. But galvanized is the only thing I would not screw into brass, SS, or copper.
#5 Old copper is probably better than anything you can buy today.
#6 and finish #1 You can bypass as much water around the CSV as you want. I can also make any size bypass inside the CSV when needed. But I have spent 50+ years figuring out that 1 GPM is the perfect number. Why would I want to change it
now? :)
 

dryhero

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With an 18 GPM pump you will loose 7 PSI for every 100' of 1" pipe. A short piece of 1" is not going to be noticed. And that 7 PSI per 100' is at 18 GPM. With a CSV it will probably never see more than 5-10 GPM flow, which makes friction loss a moot point.
Remove and do not replace the above ground check valve unless you just want water hammer and all the problems that goes with?

#1 You would need the CSV1A.
#2 Don't know. Oldest versions of CSV's are 30 years old and still working. Sand will shorten the life somewhat though.
#3 Lol! You really don't even need a tank tee or either of those big tanks if you screw a 10 gallon tank into the 3/4 port on the CSV1A. With two tanks you really only need 1 tank tee for the pressure switch and other connections. The other tank can just be teed into the line with pipe.
#4 With Teflon tape there is very little connectivity anyway. But galvanized is the only thing I would not screw into brass, SS, or copper.
#5 Old copper is probably better than anything you can buy today.
#6 and finish #1 You can bypass as much water around the CSV as you want. I can also make any size bypass inside the CSV when needed. But I have spent 50+ years figuring out that 1 GPM is the perfect number. Why would I want to change it
now? :)
Thank you! I'm slow study. Will order a CSV set for 59 PSI.
 

Valveman

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It is just hard to tell if a CSV is set properly with such large pressure tanks. Your gauge could be a pound or two different from the one we use to set the CSV. So, to make sure the CSV is working properly, leave a shower running for at least 30 minutes. If the pressure slowly increases and the pump shuts off, the bolt on the CSV needs to be adjusted to the left just a tiny amount.

With such huge tanks and a CSV set a little high the pressure will slowly climb until the pump shuts off when a shower it running, and the pump should never shut off as long as the shower is running.
 

dryhero

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Received cycle stop valve. Very fast shipping and appears to have high production quality. Tried not to be a time bandit and come back to this thread, but I can't find a good answer anywhere on the web.

Question: What's the best way to transition from the stainless steel csv to copper?

Update. I think I found it on another TLF. Dielectric unions are poop. 6" brass nipple to transition.

Thank you!
 

dryhero

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Circling back to an old post. I want to thank Valveman and Reach4 for helping me think through this. It's a bit sloppy and unconventional, but I'm happy with it. My retired well plumber was not available to help with this. I do like the CSV. It's certainly cut down on cycles. Not sure about energy comparisons, but it seems to have smoothed things out.

Pipe dope hasn't been cleaned up yet. I use threaded valves because I still struggle with sweating valves. Above the photo the plumbing wicks down to 1" (I had 1.25" to get rid of). Cut-in, out set at 40-60. CSV set at 59 PSI. Pressure before CSV runs between 100-120 PSI. I went vertical with the well tee because I wanted a shut-off for each tank. Anyway, wanted to share.

Thank you!
 

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