Main Shutoff Valve

[HereInOhio]

I purchased a house that was built in 2010 and the previous owners removed the water meter (they embezzled $21 million so the legality of removing a water meter was not much of a concern to them....they needed the money). The water company is making me rough plumb a spacer in for them to come install a new meter.

I have 1" copper coming up through the basement floor. They want to install a 1" meter although the main shutoff gate valve has 3/4" coming off and the rest of the plumbing through the house is 3/4". I was just going to use a 3/4" threaded to 1" threaded adapter to install the new meter but due to the space and water pressure drop I'm considering replacing the shutoff with one that has 1" threads coming off. First question is do I need to use a gate valve or can I use a ball valve and is either preferred? Second question is it appears the main shutoff that is attached to the 1" copper coming out of the floor is some type of compression fitting vs. sweat, is this common?

Last question is I have an irrigation system that branches off right after the main shutoff. 3/4" from the shutoff to a 3/4" tee which goes to the irrigation (3/4") and rest of the house (3/4"). I currently set my irrigation timer to try to have the system off when I would shower in the morning and for the most part it is fine. Wondering if it would make a difference as far as the pressure drop if I was to increase the shutoff to 1", increasing the line going to the tee to 1" so: 1" in, 3/4" to irrigation, 3/4" to house? Will eliminate the pressure drop to the house?
If not maybe I'm better off just trying to fit in the adapter and leaving my current shutoff.

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

First question is do I need to use a gate valve or can I use a ball valve and is either preferred?

Ball is better. Be sure to not stress that pipe coming out of the floor more than necessary.

Second question is it appears the main shutoff that is attached to the 1" copper coming out of the floor is some type of compression fitting vs. sweat, is this common?

Yes. Compression has advantages including that you don't have to get the water out.

Last question is I have an irrigation system that branches off right after the main shutoff. 3/4" from the shutoff to a 3/4" tee which goes to the irrigation (3/4") and rest of the house (3/4"). I currently set my irrigation timer to try to have the system off when I would shower in the morning and for the most part it is fine. Wondering if it would make a difference as far as the pressure drop if I was to increase the shutoff to 1", increasing the line going to the tee to 1" so: 1" in, 3/4" to irrigation, 3/4" to house? Will eliminate the pressure drop to the house?
If not maybe I'm better off just trying to fit in the adapter and leaving my current shutoff.

Bigger valve would not hurt. I guess you don't know if you have significant pressure drops. Are you saying that currently there is a reduction fitting feeding a 3/4 inch valve?

3/4 copper is good enough for most. So it does not seem imperative to upsize.

While you are doing things, you may want to plan for a softener. Also, I would like a cartridge filter for the water going to the house.

 

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[Jeff H Young]

darn never should have called the water company house comes with free water!! use a ball or gate valve just make sure its full port

 

[HereInOhio]

Ball is better. Be sure to not stress that pipe coming out of the floor more than necessary.

Thanks, I remember when my mom bought her house there was older black plastic pipe that came through the slab and the main valve was leaking. Nobody would touch it because being old I guess that type gets very brittle so I had to do it myself but remember being extremely fragile so I didn't have to break up the cement to fix it. Will do the same.

My friend just remodeled his house and I was surprised he used a shark bit valve for the main and the inspector let it fly. Something about the shark bites don't sit right with me but they seem like they hold up fine, it's just in my head. Assuming you guys would recommend the normal compression type valve correct?

Are you saying that currently there is a reduction fitting feeding a 3/4 inch valve?

The 1" copper comes up to the valve and there is no reduction fitting but the outlet of the valve is 3/4" threaded opposed to 1" threaded like the meter is. I never looked at the orifice opening of each but I would assume the 1" is larger so that's where I was thinking the reduction is taking place. If not the 3/4" pipe coming off would have to be more restrictive opposed to 1" I'm planning for.

The house is 3/4" cpvc.

While you are doing things, you may want to plan for a softener. Also, I would like a cartridge filter for the water going to the house.

Agreed. I have a pelican system sitting around but it needs a new cartridge ($700) that I was thinking about installing, due to space that's why I didn't want to put on adapters to go from 3/4" back up to 1" for the meter. I have to think about where I would have the layout but if I swap the valve I would have more wiggle room if I do end up installing the filter. Do you have a preference on types/brands of filters?

 

[John Gayewski]

Yes you would be better off using 1". Not by a lot, but using a 1"x1"x3/4" tee for your house (house getting the inline 1"outlet) and irrigation. This would help prioritize your house. If you wanted to prioritize your house even more you could use a ball valve and adjust the irrigation side of the tee even more.

Use a ball valve. Someone used compression becuse the city may not have been able to get the water to shut off completely, or someone didn't want to wait /spend the effort to get the water out of the service pipe.

Sharkbite valves are technically legal, but I only use them as a temporary "hold over".

 

[HereInOhio]

Thanks for the replies. The water department stopped out again and gave me a different diagram than before. The water department in Cleveland is a joke to say the least but anyway it said that I need to use gate valves on each side of the meter. I'm thinking a gate before and a ball after should fulfill their needs. Not sure why they require a gate valve opposed to a ball. The other thing I noticed is it says you can not have any solder fittings/connections prior to the meter so compression it is.

Thanks all!

 

[Reach4]

The other thing I noticed is it says you can not have any solder fittings/connections prior to the meter so compression it is.

If you are worried about crushing the pipe when you tighten the compression valve, I think that is a myth. Maybe if you have 24 inch wrenches. You will always want to use big wrenches. Others can comment on how much you need to crank down. Has anybody actually over-tightened a compression fitting? I am not a pro.

I would lube the ferrule and nut with silicone lube. That reduces the amount of wrench force you need to tighten.

I am thinking of regular compression fittings. I don't know about the Ford fittings. Those are probably different.

 

[WorthFlorida]

For irrigation from the home, go with 1" x 3/4" x 1" tee. If the irrigation is currently adequate with 3/4" leave it alone. Copper has a inside diameter larger than other pipe types.

Thanks for the replies. The water department stopped out again and gave me a different diagram than before. The water department in Cleveland is a joke to say the least but anyway it said that I need to use gate valves on each side of the meter. I'm thinking a gate before and a ball after should fulfill their needs. Not sure why they require a gate valve opposed to a ball. The other thing I noticed is it says you can not have any solder fittings/connections prior to the meter so compression it is. Thanks all!

In Florida all water meters are outdoors and only a few inches below grade inside a concrete meter box. All have ball valves before and after the meter.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Thanks for the replies. The water department stopped out again and gave me a different diagram than before. The water department in Cleveland is a joke to say the least but anyway it said that I need to use gate valves on each side of the meter. I'm thinking a gate before and a ball after should fulfill their needs. Not sure why they require a gate valve opposed to a ball. The other thing I noticed is it says you can not have any solder fittings/connections prior to the meter so compression it is.

Thanks all!

very common for water company to have specs . Just follow them get a quality gate valve that's approved . Since you've had contact don't do what one of us tells you . Try telling inspector you read something on Terry Love Forum. On other hand if you aren't getting anything inspected who cares what they want, the meter reader going to turn you in for a solder joint or a ball valve? personally I'd follow spec but if I had good quality alternative I might run with it especially on my side of meter

 

[Jadnashua]

When a ball valve fails, my limited experience is that the ball can't be turned to shut it off. When a gate valve fails, the shaft to the gate fails, and the gate tends to shut the water off...so, given the two differences, it might be better for the failure mode for the water to be off rather than not being able to shut it off.

I live in a row of townhouses with a common supply. I needed to replace my individual shutoff. I ended up adding a Sharkbite valve after the leaking original valve as while I could have shut the row off, it would have taken forever for things to stop draining down to get a soldered valve on, and I still would have taken a shower trying to tighten a compression valve in place rather than a quick push to seat a Sharkbite. They have their place. Doing it that way, I was able to restore water to the other 9 units in a few minutes rather than likely a few hours.

There ARE tools to allow you to stop the water to allow you to solder something when you can't shut it off completely, but that specialty tool has its limitations, and costly for a one-time use. There's a box designed to freeze the water in the pipe to block it, too...again, expensive for a one-time use.