Likely Failed Filox, need suggestions

[Aaroninnh]

Back in 2015 I worked with one of the more reputable internet suppliers to design a treatment system. My symptoms were occasional blue/green water. Pink stains around drains, and black slime in toilet tank/sink. Wasn't a major problem, more of a minor annoyance. I had a local lab do a water test.

pH 6.8 (although I've tested as low as 6.4)
Hardness 20ppm
Iron .1ppm
Manganese .025ppm
Copper .2ppm
ORP +307mv @54
They sold me the following:
1.5CuFt 10x54 Calcite Vortex Tank w/ 5600sxt
1.0CuFt 10x44 Filox Vortex Tank w/ 5600sxt
9x48 Magical Descaler

I was a rookie at the time but had done some research, so when the Filox valve showed up with a 3.5GPM DLFC, I was surprised. I reached out to them and asked if it was a mistake and got the following reply:

"I emailed the distributor this morning to see what DLFC Button they typically install in the backwash 1.0 cu/ft Filox Filters..... using a Standard Resin Tank & then a Vortech Resin Tank....

What is DLFC Button used for a 1 cu/ft Filox backwashing filter with a Standard Resin Tank.... and then with a Vortech Resin Tank....?
(Filox Media backwashes at 12-15 gpm sq/ft)

A.) 5.0 for Standard Tank and 3.5 for Vortech Tank

Since we started marketing equipment online in 1995... we have always relied on the distributors that drop ship our orders, to follow recommendations of the manufacturers, when installing DLFC Buttons on the equipment we market.


FYI.... I have 4.0, 5.0 & 7.0 DLFC Buttons in stock... Let me know which one you decide that you would like to use, and I will send it to you.

>>> Note: We cannot be responsible to any loss of media down the drain, by installing a higher GPM flow rate button than has been recommended by the distributor <<<
"

That reply made me nervous about losing my media, so I just left it as-is. I was a lot dumber then. Fast forward to today, and I don't think the Filox is doing anything anymore. I've noticed a gradual increase in the pink stains / black slime.

Calcite tank is working great, PH is always a perfect 7.0, but it did increase my hardness.

I just replaced the descaler with a .75CuFt softener, and it is working great. Hasn't been in long enough to see if the pink stains/black slime go away.

I have 3 options I am considering, but am interested in thoughts/alternatives.

1) Put the Filox in Bypass and let the softener deal with iron/manganese. Increase regen frequency from a demand based of about 14 days to 7 days to keep it from fouling
2) Rebed the Filox, put in a 7.0DLFC. My water tends to be cold. Usually 45-55 degrees depending on season.
3) Rebed the tank with Katalox Light, but id be down to a SFR of 2.64gpm according to the specs I found

 

[Reach4]

1.0CuFt 10x44 Filox Vortex Tank w/ 5600sxt

The 5600sxt cannot come close to the right backwashing rate for a 10 inch Filox tank. That matching was never even close. No DLFC (removed) is as close as you would get, and it is still not close enough. Filox should be backwashed maybe every day or two, if I remember correctly.

Even with KL, 5600sxt would be marginal. 7 gpm is a little lower than what I would prefer for KL in a 10 inch tank, but it in the range that is probably acceptable.

I can amplify on any of these points, if you would like.

Option 2 won't work. The other two have merit. I don't know how to use ORP.

If I were getting a KL system, I would want it to have a treatment solution cycle added to the system. My iron+H2S system does that. There is a 15 gallon solution tank, and each regen, slowly sends that solution thru the media as a brine draw in a softener would. So there is an injector, which I suspect is #1 white -- never looked. Regen is every 3 days. Media is Centaur Carbon, and regen is every 3 days. Every 33 days, I put a bottle of Aldi bleach into the solution tank, and top up with soft water. I don't have Mn. My DLFC is 5 gpm.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Aaroninnh]

The 5600sxt cannot come close to the right backwashing rate for a 10 inch Filox tank. That matching was never even close. No DLFC (removed) is as close as you would get, and it is still not close enough. Filox should be backwashed maybe every day or two, if I remember correctly.

Even with KL, 5600sxt would be marginal. 7 gpm is a little lower than what I would prefer for KL in a 10 inch tank, but it in the range that is probably acceptable.

I can amplify on any of these points, if you would like.

I am not against replacing the valve if I need to, however my well pump is 10GPM so that would be close to my ceiling.
Well has plenty of water, no danger of pumping it dry. Well itself is 80GPM.

Please feel free to amplify.

 

[Bannerman]

The chart below, specifies the backwash rate for Filox to be 20-30 GPM/ft2. In a 10" diameter tank, this calculates as 11-16 GPM @60℉ water temp. When the water temperature is in the 50s, the backwash rate needed will be reduced to 90% whereas temps in the 40s, the rate will be reduced to 75% of the 60℉ rate.

Because 1 ft3 media is usually installed in a 9" X 48" tank, the 60℉ rate would be 8.8-13 GPM. Considering water temperature compensation, the 5600's 7 GPM maximum BW rate maybe sufficient for Filox when using a 9" diameter tank.

Alternately, a lighter media that requires a lower BW rate such as Katalox Light (10-15 GPM/ft2) might be a better option.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/154-155

 

[Aaroninnh]

The chart below, specifies the backwash rate for Filox to be 20-30 GPM/ft2. In a 10" diameter tank, this calculates as 11-16 GPM @60℉ water temp. When the water temperature is in the 50s, the backwash rate needed will be reduced to 90% whereas temps in the 40s, the rate will be reduced to 75% of the 60℉ rate.

Because 1 ft3 media is usually installed in a 9" X 48" tank, the 60℉ rate would be 8.8-13 GPM. Considering water temperature compensation, the 5600's 7 GPM maximum BW rate maybe sufficient for Filox when using a 9" diameter tank.

Alternately, a lighter media that requires a lower BW rate such as Katalox Light (10-15 GPM/ft2) might be a better option.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/154-155

If I need to get new media anyways, why not just get Katalox light? I think its even a bit cheaper than replacement Filox.

It is a vortex tank, so how would that impact the backwash numbers?

 

[Reach4]

Vortec helps.

50% bed expansion corresponds to the top of the tank. I would be aiming for maybe 35% to 40% bed expansion.

Also note that your drain backpressure can impact flow rate. Right now, with DLFC removed, consider measuring the flow rate during backwash. If it takes N seconds to fill a 5 gallon bucket, GPM=300/N

What have you read about the significance of your ORP?

 

[Bannerman]

When using a Vortech tank with KL, the temperature compensated BW rate will be typically reduced by 15-20%. Because Filox is so heavy, there is much less potential for media loss even without the BW rate being reduced for Vortech.

Because the SFR for KL is 6-12 GPM/ft2, this is 3.2-6.5 GPM in a 10" diameter tank, which exceeds the 1-6 GPM/ft3 specified in the chart for Filox.

 

[Aaroninnh]

When using a Vortech tank with KL, the temperature compensated BW rate will be typically reduced by 15-20%. Because Filox is so heavy, there is much less potential for media loss even without the BW rate being reduced for Vortech.

Because the SFR for KL is 6-12 GPM/ft2, this is 3.2-6.5 GPM in a 10" diameter tank, which exceeds the 1-6 GPM/ft3 specified in the chart for Filox.

I have seen conflicting info for Katalox as to SFR, my head starts spinning.

This document https://www.nelsencorp.com/customer/docs/skudocs/KATALOX_Product Specs.pdf mentions a max SFR of 2.64GPM with a 1CF in a 10x44 tank. I have also seen your numbers other places as well.

Watchwater (whom I believe is the manufacturer/patent holder) has a calculator. You need to convert flowrate to metric, but when I put in 1.14m3/H of flow (about 5GPM) and .1 iron and .025 manganese it says I need 2.28 cubic feet of media, 40% freeboard. The calculator is here if you want to check it out.

https://www.watchwater.de/katalox-light-iron-manganese-and-hydrogen-sulfide-removal/

All of this makes my head spin which is why I finally broke down and posted for some help.

 

[Aaroninnh]

Vortec helps.

50% bed expansion corresponds to the top of the tank. I would be aiming for maybe 35% to 40% bed expansion.

Also note that your drain backpressure can impact flow rate. Right now, with DLFC removed, consider measuring the flow rate during backwash. If it takes N seconds to fill a 5 gallon bucket, GPM=300/N

What have you read about the significance of your ORP?

Are those numbers with a vortex or should I reduce them by a percentage (ive heard 10-20?).

As to ORP, havent heard a peep about it in the context of katalox. It was an item I was told to get tested before buying the Filox as it needs to be above a certain level to work without injection...something along those lines.

I was well above the level I was told to look for, which was -200 or something...I cant remember.

 

[Reach4]

Are those numbers with a vortex or should I reduce them by a percentage (ive heard 10-20?).

Those numbers are from a Watch Water graph, and based on counting pixels in the image.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/backwashed-katalox-with-dlfc-removed-wow.90471/

I suggest that you read through all of the posts from this search: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?search/48717607/&q=katalox&o=date&c[node]=22&c[user][0]=96339

 

[Aaroninnh]

Also note that your drain backpressure can impact flow rate. Right now, with DLFC removed, consider measuring the flow rate during backwash. If it takes N seconds to fill a 5 gallon bucket, GPM=300/N

That would be difficult. Its about a 25' long drain. I have a 5 foot piece of 5/8 ID polyethylene (the rigid black stuff like you use for wells) from the valve up to a barbed fitting that threads into 3/4" schedule40 PVC. That runs about 24' where it is PVC cemented right into an air gap fitting that lands into a 2" standpipe. I used the schedule40 to reduce friction since the run was long. No way to measure at that end without a saw...

 

[Reach4]

I have a 5 foot piece of 5/8 ID polyethylene (the rigid black stuff like you use for wells)

I am not aware of that material. My experience is limited.

 

[Aaroninnh]

I am not aware of that material. My experience is limited.

Its this. https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-2-in-x-100-ft-IPS-125-psi-NSF-Poly-Pipe-X2-50125100/205903467

It is listed as 1/2" nominal, but it requires a 5/8 barbed fitting as its ID is .622. I believe its because its based on IPS sizes and not CTS, but thats a guess.

 

[Reach4]

Yes, very common. While HD calls it IPS, it is more commonly called SIDR pipe. Spec is ASTM D-2239 and when you see that, you know what you have. It is not normally called rigid, since it comes in rolls, but it is hardly limp. Good choice for that job.

https://interstateplastic.com/catalog/pipe_for_fittings

 

[Aaroninnh]

Based on my iron, manganese, and ORP numbers posted way above, does anything think I would need H2O2 or chlorine regeneration if I went with Katalox? I don't think my current Filox valve has the right guts to do a brine draw.

Any other ideas/considerations?

 

[Skyjumper]

in my opinion you don't need the KL filter at all. go with option 1, although I would've gone with a bigger softener. regardless your money is better spent on a bigger tank and new resin 6 years from now (or longer). you can get a 10x54 tank and 1.5cuft resin for <300 delivered.

 

[Aaroninnh]

Just an update. Since I already had the tank, the valve, I decided to just order 1CF of Katalox.

My iron is low, so is the manganese, and my ORP is high so im hoping that it'll do the job without any extra help from H2O2.

If it doesn't then the softener will just have to deal with it, but this way I can stretch my softener regens.

I'll continue to update.

 

[Reach4]

7 gpm dlfc, or no dlfc?

When you put the KL in, you will let it soak, rather than backwashing right away. Then you will do extra long backwashing. If you had not seen anything about this, seek out more info. Find the recommended soak time, for example.

 

[Aaroninnh]

7 gpm dlfc, or no dlfc?

When you put the KL in, you will let it soak, rather than backwashing right away. Then you will do extra long backwashing. If you had not seen anything about this, seek out more info. Find the recommended soak time, for example.

I saw something about this, I need to dig it back up. Something about an overnight soak, really long backwash and rapid rinse cycles. I'll reread it when the stuff arrives.

Watchwater stated that backwash should be 10-12GPM per sqft. With my 10x44 tank, that puts me at 5.5GPM-6.6GPM


However my water runs about 47 degrees (based on my testing and the average well temp for New Hampshire I was able to find) , so I multiply by .9 or so which gets me down to 4.95GPM-5.95GPM. I also have a vortech tank, which is supposed to reduce it further, but I can't find hard numbers on exactly how much.

Im gonna start with a 5GPM DLFC. Unfortunately, Fleck doesnt make a 5.5 or a 6, which would put me right in the sweet spot. So I will be at the lower end of the range and hope the vortech gives me some sort of benefit.

My tanks are almond so I can shine a light and watch the expansion then adjust as needed.

 

[ditttohead]

Fleck part number 17814, 6 GPM DLFC button.