keep pump running at high pressure with pressure switch

[Valveman]

Friction loss at high flow will cause a check valve to create a loss of pressure. But at zero flow it would have to be a pretty strong spring in the check valve to cause 5 PSI loss. Could be just a gauge as being in error a couple pounds either way is not out of normal. You are running so close to the max pressure that pump can build anyway, I would just turn up the pressure switch so it doesn't cycle off while the sprinklers are running. Should still go off when the sprinklers shut down.

 

[Reach4]

A few days ago I was able to adjust the psi up to 56 from the 52, but anything more and the pump will not shut off.

The pump not shutting off is what you want, if you are using water. Should we infer that this non-shut-off complaint is about when you are not any using water?

The pressure with the sprinklers on is controlled by the pressure switch 36-56.

The pressure when the pump is on is controlled by the pump and the sprinklers and any other water use. If the pump stays on, the pressure switch is not controlling the pressure. That is the steady state that you want.

We keep asking, in different ways, how high the pressure gets if no water is being used and the pump keeps running. I did not find a response to that. We keep suspecting there is a communications disconnect. Finish this sentence: "When I am not using any water, but the pump is still running, the water pressure on the pressure gauge does not rise above ___"

The sprinkler valves are about 20 feet higher than the pump, would this have anything to do with why the pump is only creating the 56 psi?

If the valves that pass water to the sprinklers are closed (off), then no. If the pressure gauge were 20 ft up, then that would affect the pressure reading a lot.

My pressure tank is a couple of feet from the switch/gauge due to location restrictions.

How about a photo that includes the pressure switch, the pressure gauge, and the input to the pressure tank?

If the pipe between switch and tank is carrying water, and it is not a large diameter pipe, there can be bad effects.

If you truly cannot locate those together, can you run a separate pipe from the pressure gauge input to a tee that feeds both the pressure switch and pressure gauge? That separate pipe does not have water flow, so that pipe can be small if you like. Does this make sense to you? On https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pressure-tank-plumbing.106010/ post #3 I added a sketch to try to illustrate this. There is another way to control this early shutoff due to a momentary pressure spike: there is a gadget called a snubber, which slows the flow to the pressure switch diaphram a bit.

Is a couple of feet similar to the "couple of beers" that people tell the cops they had to drink? So here is the deal: it is not clear how you could be having this problem. But with a problem, if the pressure tank is good, then the switch and tank separation can explain unwanted shut-offs. If you have a multi-zone irrigation system, if there is a momentary spike in pressure as one zone turns off, and the next turns on, normally the pressure tank absorbs the spike. But if the pressure switch is much closer to the spike, the pressure switch might see a momentary rise in pressure, and shut off.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[RTL]

A few days ago I was able to adjust the psi up to 56 from the 52, but anything more and the pump will not shut off.

The pump not shutting off is what you want, if you are using water. Should we infer that this non-shut-off complaint is about when you are not any using water?

I don't know how this can be so hard to understand.
The pressure switch if set any higher than 56 and the pump will not shut off while not using any water, so setting it any higher will not work as the pump would run until it overheated.
The pump needs to run at the maximum pressure it can build or close to it to adequately run the sprinkler system, but while running the sprinklers the pump builds the 56 psi and shut off and slowly the psi drops to the cut in pressure of 36 on the pressure switch. So I need the pump running while the irrigation system is in use and to shut off while not in use.

We keep asking, in different ways, how high the pressure gets if no water is being used and the pump keeps running. I did not find a response to that. We keep suspecting there is a communications disconnect. Finish this sentence: "When I am not using any water, but the pump is still running, the water pressure on the pressure gauge does not rise above ___"

Answer: 56

Is a couple of feet similar to the "couple of beers" that people tell the cops they had to drink? So here is the deal: it is not clear how you could be having this problem. But with a problem, if the pressure tank is good, then the switch and tank separation can explain unwanted shut-offs. If you have a multi-zone irrigation system, if there is a momentary spike in pressure as one zone turns off, and the next turns on, normally the pressure tank absorbs the spike. But if the pressure switch is much closer to the spike, the pressure switch might see a momentary rise in pressure, and shut off.

Answer: 23"
The issue was that no one can figure out why the pump is not creating more than 56 psi so that a csv could be used to keep the psi to 50 which would keep the pump running. Max head is 147 ft so max pressure (/2.31) would be 63 and I was able to get 56, but..

Couple of days ago I creeped up the cut out psi to 56 from the 52 (not water use) I've had it set at and made sure the pump was cycling on and off. Evidently when the wife used the garden hose this morning the pump made less than the 56 psi and stayed on up until an hour ago. Pump was very warm, so I might be out $1200. Can these pumps be rebuilt?

Simplest answer is to run a pump relay in parallel.

 

[Bannerman]

Mfg recommended check valve after the pump and I have no room to install before the pump.

Don't know how your pump is equipped, but a jet pump will normally utilize a foot valve which incorporates a check valve within the inlet screen placed in the lake.

 

[Reach4]

You say"When I am not using any water, but the pump is still running, the water pressure on the pressure gauge does not rise above 56"

OK. To test for that, you would have to have turned up the pressure gauge to not turn off at 56. If you hit the cut-off, the pump stops running.

Finish this sentence: "When the sprinklers have been on, and the pump is still running, the water pressure on the pressure gauge does not rise above ___"

The answer to that cannot logically be 56, since that is the pressure you get to when you are not using water. The pressure that you level out at will be lower when using water.

 

[RTL]

Don't know how your pump is equipped, but a jet pump will normally utilize a foot valve which incorporates a check valve within the inlet screen placed in the lake.

I also have a foot valve

 

[RTL]

You say"When I am not using any water, but the pump is still running, the water pressure on the pressure gauge does not rise above 56"

OK. To test for that, you would have to have turned up the pressure gauge to not turn off at 56. If you hit the cut-off, the pump stops running.

Finish this sentence: "When the sprinklers have been on, and the pump is still running, the water pressure on the pressure gauge does not rise above ___"

The answer to that cannot logically be 56, since that is the pressure you get to when you are not using water. The pressure that you level out at will be lower when using water.

Yes, while not using any water I've turned up the pressure switch (CW) to a point that the pump will not cut out and systematically backed off the setting (CCW) so that the pump will shut off. This is the maximum psi the pump can create and still shut off. 56 psi.
2nd
While using the sprinklers I'm not using enough gpm so the pump is able to build pressure to the 56 psi and shut off the pump.

 

[Reach4]

So with the pressure switch kicking out at 56, that could explain why your pressure never rose above 56. Looking back on post #4 you had said that, but I failed to pick up on it. That explains a lot.

I would swap out the pressure switch for a new 40/60. You can adjust that down later (typical 3.5 turns CCW to drop 10 PSI), or adjust up, if need be. Don't get the kind with a lever (low cutoff).

 

[RTL]

So with the pressure switch kicking out at 56, that could explain why your pressure never rose above 56. Looking back on post #4 you had said that, but I failed to pick up on it. That explains a lot.

I would swap out the pressure switch for a new 40/60. You can adjust that down later (typical 3.5 turns CCW to drop 10 PSI), or adjust up, if need be. Don't get the kind with a lever (low cutoff).

Why would you swap out the pressure switch? The 40/60 switch is set to kick out at 56 and that is what it does.

 

[Reach4]

Why would you swap out the pressure switch? The 40/60 switch is set to kick out at 56 and that is what it does.

You said "Can't adjust the pressure switch any higher as it is currently at max. ". To me, that means that you turned the nut on the big spring clockwise as much as you can. So that switch cannot be used to cut off higher than 56.

Your complaint is that while sprinkling, the pump cycles, rather than staying on. The easy cure for that is to turn the pressure switch up to 60 or 65 -- high enough that the pump will not shut down while the sprinklers are on , whatever it takes.

 

[RTL]

You said "Can't adjust the pressure switch any higher as it is currently at max. ". To me, that means that you turned the nut on the big spring clockwise as much as you can. So that switch cannot be used to cut off higher than 56.

Your complaint is that while sprinkling, the pump cycles, rather than staying on. The easy cure for that is to turn the pressure switch up to 60 or 65 -- high enough that the pump will not shut down while the sprinklers are on , whatever it takes.

So your advice is to set the pressure switch higher than 56 so that the pump never shuts off regardless if I'm using water or not. LOL I've stated many times that the pressure switch can't be adjusted any higher or the pump will not shut off when I'm not using water.

 

[Reach4]

So your advice is to set the pressure switch higher than 56 so that the pump never shuts off regardless if I'm using water or not. LOL I've stated many times that the pressure switch can't be adjusted any higher or the pump will not shut off when I'm not using water.

No way am I saying that you leave the pressure switch set such that the pump never turns off if no water is being used. I would say to do that for testing purposes if you could. Can you do that???

I/we believe that the pressure when no water is being used, and the pump runs, will rise higher than the steady state pressure when the sprinklers are running and the pump is running continuously.

In post #4, you said that you "Can't adjust the pressure switch any higher as it is currently at max. "
Do you stand by that? I guess not. To me, that looked you said you cannot turn your existing pressure switch to higher than what you have it turned to. Now you say that is not what you meant.

Unless I missed it, you never said that if the pump is made to run continuously, and you use no water, the water pressure will not rise above 56. I thought you were saying that for a while, but then you said that the pressure switch cuts off the pump. So if the pressure switch cuts off the pump at 56, of course the pressure will not rise above 56. To make the pump continue to run, there is more than one way. One is to turn the cutoff up to 60 or so, but I think you said your pressure switch had its middle spring as tight as it would go. Another way is to use an insulating stick, like a piece of dry wood, to push the armature to hold the contacts closed (on).

If you would like to describe test results where you force the pump to not shut off for a minute after the pressure is 56, then do so. Do so while the sprinklers are spraying, and do so when no water is being used.

 

[RTL]

No way am I saying that you leave the pressure switch set such that the pump never turns off if no water is being used. I would say to do that for testing purposes if you could. Can you do that???

I/we believe that the pressure when no water is being used, and the pump runs, will rise higher than the steady state pressure when the sprinklers are running and the pump is running continuously.

In post #4, you said that you "Can't adjust the pressure switch any higher as it is currently at max. "
Do you stand by that? I guess not. To me, that looked you said you cannot turn your existing pressure switch to higher than what you have it turned to. Now you say that is not what you meant.

Unless I missed it, you never said that if the pump is made to run continuously, and you use no water, the water pressure will not rise above 56. I thought you were saying that for a while, but then you said that the pressure switch cuts off the pump. So if the pressure switch cuts off the pump at 56, of course the pressure will not rise above 56. To make the pump continue to run, there is more than one way. One is to turn the cutoff up to 60 or so, but I think you said your pressure switch had its middle spring as tight as it would go. Another way is to use an insulating stick, like a piece of dry wood, to push the armature to hold the contacts closed (on).
t
If you would like to describe test results where you force the pump to not shut off for a minute after the pressure is 56, then do so. Do so while the sprinklers are spraying, and do so when no water is being used.

No way am I saying that you leave the pressure switch set such that the pump never turns off if no water is being used. I would say to do that for testing purposes if you could. Can you do that???

I've stated multiple times the pump will not create anymore psi than 56 regardless if water is being used or not and even with bypassing the pressure switch. Understand?

I/we believe that the pressure when no water is being used, and the pump runs, will rise higher than the steady state pressure when the sprinklers are running and the pump is running continuously.

No, I have tested the pump psi capabilities with the sprinklers on and it will not create more than 56 psi. I have even by passed the switch altogether to verify.

In post #4, you said that you "Can't adjust the pressure switch any higher as it is currently at max. "
Do you stand by that? I guess not. To me, that looked you said you cannot turn your existing pressure switch to higher than what you have it turned to. Now you say that is not what you meant.

You can always adjust the pressure switch higher, but that does not mean the pump can create anymore psi than it is capable of producing which in my case is 56 psi

Unless I missed it, you never said that if the pump is made to run continuously, and you use no water, the water pressure will not rise above 56. I thought you were saying that for a while, but then you said that the pressure switch cuts off the pump. So if the pressure switch cuts off the pump at 56, of course the pressure will not rise above 56. To make the pump continue to run, there is more than one way. One is to turn the cutoff up to 60 or so, but I think you said your pressure switch had its middle spring as tight as it would go. Another way is to use an insulating stick, like a piece of dry wood, to push the armature to hold the contacts closed (on).

See above

t
If you would like to describe test results where you force the pump to not shut off for a minute after the pressure is 56, then do so. Do so while the sprinklers are spraying, and do so when no water is being used.

See above, but all of this discussion we have had is based on the recommendation to use the CSV which will not work unless I can get up to at least 63 psi so I'm moving on from the pressure switch discussion.

My original posted question:
I basically want the pump to run at max while the sprinkler valves are open and yes I have a pressure release valve. Can I run a pump relay and a pressure switch and has anyone done that and how would you wire that solution.

Today I installed a pump start relay in parallel with my pressure switch. Thank You Reach4 for the wiring diagram as that is exactly what I wanted to know. I backed down the pressure switch to 50 psi and when using the hose bid the pump operates 30/50. When I use the sprinklers the pump turns on through the relay and runs up to 56 psi which is perfect.

Now, any recommendations on pump protection:
Run dry
Relay failure (overheating)

 

[Reach4]

Run dry: https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/cycle-sensor-pump-monitors

Overheating: I have no Over Temperature Switch to suggest.

Now that you have your jet pump switch set to 30/50, you might want to set the air precharge to 25. That number would be based on letting the pressure tank to be able to supply water between when the pressure switch turns on and the pump starts delivering water, and lets you avoid a dead time in water pressure. Downside of too high precharge, a stutter in water pressure (not a big deal). Downside of too low, the diaphragm stretches more.

 

[Valveman]

I looked hard for a curve for that pump and couldn't find one. But most "sprinkler" pumps have a very flat curve. That means they will deadhead at the same pressure that will also produce 30-40 GPM flow. For this reason flat curve pumps will not work well with a pressure switch. If the curve were not flat from 40 GPM to deadhead, you would be able to turn the off setting of the pressure switch higher than the pressure the sprinklers are running at as Reach said. 52 PSI is all the pressure the pump can build, but it can also pump 30-40 GPM at 52 PSI.

Bypassing the pressure switch with the pump start relay is done all the time for this reason. But using a pump with a curve that produces and increase in head at shutoff would make your life much easier when using a pressure switch. Because the pump can only build 52 PSI a pressure relief for protecting from a malfunctioning pump start relay is not possible. Setting a prv any higher than 52 PSI means it will never open. Setting it any lower than 52 PSI means it will never close.

But you can protect the pump from running dry by detecting low amps like with a Cycle Sensor. The Cycle Sensor doesn't care about the amps. It only knows the motor amps are lower when pumping air than when pumping water and shuts the pump off when that happens.

You have done the best you can with the pump you have. As long as the sprinklers don't clog up or the pump start relay start the pump without popping up the sprinklers it will work fine.

Cycle Sensor Pump Monitor – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation General Information Specifications Wiring Diagram Installation Instructions Installation Video Troubleshooting

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[RTL]

I looked hard for a curve for that pump and couldn't find one. But most "sprinkler" pumps have a very flat curve. That means they will deadhead at the same pressure that will also produce 30-40 GPM flow. For this reason flat curve pumps will not work well with a pressure switch. If the curve were not flat from 40 GPM to deadhead, you would be able to turn the off setting of the pressure switch higher than the pressure the sprinklers are running at as Reach said. 52 PSI is all the pressure the pump can build, but it can also pump 30-40 GPM at 52 PSI.

Bypassing the pressure switch with the pump start relay is done all the time for this reason. But using a pump with a curve that produces and increase in head at shutoff would make your life much easier when using a pressure switch. Because the pump can only build 52 PSI a pressure relief for protecting from a malfunctioning pump start relay is not possible. Setting a prv any higher than 52 PSI means it will never open. Setting it any lower than 52 PSI means it will never close.

But you can protect the pump from running dry by detecting low amps like with a Cycle Sensor. The Cycle Sensor doesn't care about the amps. It only knows the motor amps are lower when pumping air than when pumping water and shuts the pump off when that happens.

You have done the best you can with the pump you have. As long as the sprinklers don't clog up or the pump start relay start the pump without popping up the sprinklers it will work fine.

Cycle Sensor Pump Monitor – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation General Information Specifications Wiring Diagram Installation Instructions Installation Video Troubleshooting

cyclestopvalves.com

I have a PRV, but I'm not worried about protecting against the pump creating to much psi. My worries are dry run and the $255 seems expensive, but good product you have and worth the money I guess. The other problem as you stated is if the controller turns on the pump, but not the sprinkler heads which would cause the pump to over heat. I haven't been able to find a solution for this issue. Thanks for all the help Reach4 and Valveman.