Iron Out to clean Katalox Light?

[Artem]

I would like more... maybe dancing around the bottom of your top basket, if you could.

I'm sorry if I mislead you. The tank is capable to hold a lot of flow. I just put a flow restrictor for 6gpm. Even with this flow I have some small black particles in the drain(looks like a media). So, I'm a little worried about increasing the back wash flow since the KL is mostly very light...
Please let me know if I misunderstood your comment. Thanks

 

[Reach4]

I'm sorry if I mislead you. The tank is capable to hold a lot of flow. I just put a flow restrictor for 6gpm. Even with this flow I have some small black particles in the drain(looks like a media). So, I'm a little worried about increasing the back wash flow since the KL is mostly very light...
Please let me know if I misunderstood your comment. Thanks

You did not misunderstand. 6 gpm is less than desirable for a 10 inch tank with KL I think.

Small? Tiny pieces broken off of the media should get washed away. I am using tiny to describe pieces significanly smaller than the average size of the normal media pieces. Would you call the normal media pieces small?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Artem]

You did not misunderstand. 6 gpm is less than desirable for a 10 inch tank with KL I think.

Based on the information about KL https://www.watchwater.de/katalox-light-iron-manganese-and-hydrogen-sulfide-removal/
and the capacity of 10 inch tank: it has 0.5 sqft of media, looks like the maximum backwash flow could be 12 x 0.5 = 6gpm.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Small? Tiny pieces broken off of the media should get washed away. I am using tiny to describe pieces significantly smaller than the average size of the normal media pieces. Would you call the normal media pieces small?

KL media could go as low as 5 microns, it's mostly Zeolite covered with MgO. The manufacturer claims very good physical filtering capabilities because of that.
You're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, I tried 7.4gpm max and found significantly bigger media parts in the drain line.
The media expended about 16% this time.
Maybe I need to reduce media bed depth from 38inch(looks like I either lost one inch or it got slightly more compact) to about 30inch. Or just wait until it happens naturally over the time In this last case I might end up with the biggest media particles in the tank.

 

[Bannerman]

looks like the maximum backwash flow could be 12 x 0.5 = 6gpm.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Forum member Ditttohead is a water treatment equipment distributor. He has tested KL media and has recommended the BW rate to be 10 - 15 GPM/ft2. In consideration of the 0.54 ft2 cross section for a 10" tank, the recommended DLFC will then be 5.4 - 8.1 GPM.

As there are further compensation factors for water temperature, the DLFC rate will need to be reduced if the backwash water is cooler than 60℉.

https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/155

 

[Reach4]

Based on the information about KL https://www.watchwater.de/katalox-light-iron-manganese-and-hydrogen-sulfide-removal/
and the capacity of 10 inch tank: it has 0.5 sqft of media, looks like the maximum backwash flow could be 12 x 0.5 = 6gpm.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

A 10 inch tank is 5.55 sqft.

12 gpm/ft2 is less than optimum IMO. Have you seen the graph, and my table which is derived from the graph? I suspect that number you are looking at is largely influenced by the marketing people. Backwash water temperature is significant.

KL media could go as low as 5 microns, it's mostly Zeolite covered with MgO. The manufacturer claims very good physical filtering capabilities because of that.
You're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

I expect you are wrong in interpreting some words that would lead you to believe that a 5 micron piece of media should not be backwashed away, but it's your claim.

Anyway, I tried 7.4gpm max and found significantly bigger media parts in the drain line.
The media expended about 16% this time.
Maybe I need to reduce media bed depth from 38inch(looks like I either lost one inch or it got slightly more compact) to about 30inch. Or just wait until it happens naturally over the time In this last case I might end up with the biggest media particles in the tank.

I forget your media depth. Can you measure the size of the particles being washed out? Probably not, but an optical comparator would be the tool of choice. https://www.watchwater.de/katalox-light-iron-manganese-and-hydrogen-sulfide-removal/ says mesh size is 14 x 30. https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/chemis...chnical-library/particle-size-conversion.html says 30 mesh is over 500 microns.

How does that 16% expansion compare to the height of the bottom of your top basket?

 

[Bannerman]

Watchwater claims KL filtration capabilities are <3 microns, but that will be through a compacted media bed. During backwash, the media is expanded and granules are fluidized so any small and lightweight granule pieces will rise higher in the tank and so will be flushed to drain.

With any new media, an initial extended BW is normally performed at the appropriate BW velocity to eliminate broken, underweight and undersized granules resulting from the manufacturing process. Because your system only utilized a BW rate toward the lower recommended range, it would then be not unusual for additional light weight granules to be eliminated upon using a higher BW flow rate.

Suggest installing an 8 GPM DLFC and then perform an extended manual BW. Upon advancing the controller to BW, remove the controller's electrical plug to prevent the controller from advancing to the following cycle. This will then allow the BW cycle to continue until the drain water is fully clear.

 

[Artem]

Thank you guys for all the hints and opinions. Honestly, when I first wrote to this forum I didn't know what to do. Local professionals were giving so much different solutions to the same problem. The system I've bought had 6gpm on 12 inch tank, which clogged within a month.
Yesterday I made another iron test and got 0.13 ppm right out of the new filter (incoming is about 4.5 ppm). I think, this is a great progress!
Should the iron filter remove all the iron or some traces below 0.3 ppm is acceptable?
I'll try to address all your concerns here:

I would like more... maybe dancing around the bottom of your top basket, if you could.

I'm sorry, but I think I don't understand what is top basket... Is this the top of the tank? or bottom of the head?

Forum member Ditttohead is a water treatment equipment distributor. He has tested KL media and has recommended the BW rate to be 10 - 15 GPM/ft2. In consideration of the 0.54 ft2 cross section for a 10" tank, the recommended DLFC will then be 5.4 - 8.1 GPM.
As there are further compensation factors for water temperature, the DLFC rate will need to be reduced if the backwash water is cooler than 60℉.
https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/155

My water temperature is about 13C, which is 55.4F, so from this perspective myy 7.6gpm could be at the very top of the suggested flow by Ditttohead. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

A 10 inch tank is 5.55 sqft.
12 gpm/ft2 is less than optimum IMO. Have you seen the graph, and my table which is derived from the graph? I suspect that number you are looking at is largely influenced by the marketing people. Backwash water temperature is significant.

Yes, I've seen it, thank you. I feel the same about sales people Unfortunately, too much of my background information is from some commercials ...

How does that 16% expansion compare to the height of the bottom of your top basket?

I'm not very sure about the terminology, but I have another 6 inches to the end of the tank(another 16%) and about 2.5 inches till the point where the tank starts curving.

Suggest installing an 8 GPM DLFC and then perform an extended manual BW. Upon advancing the controller to BW, remove the controller's electrical plug to prevent the controller from advancing to the following cycle. This will then allow the BW cycle to continue until the drain water is fully clear.

I installed the hose connector(no restriction) and was able to see 8.2gpm. This gave me another 1.5 inch of media expansion. In general, the drain water is quite clean (even from iron) in about 3 minutes after the start. I'm doing backwash cycles once per day right now.
Looks like I need to reduce my bead depth from 39 till 30 inches as suggested...

 

[Reach4]

I'm sorry, but I think I don't understand what is top basket... Is this the top of the tank? or bottom of the head?

Thing under crud in this photo https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/top-basket-jpg.66793/ but you may have a diffuser or nothing extra up there instead.

I'm not very sure about the terminology, but I have another 6 inches to the end of the tank(another 16%) and about 2.5 inches till the point where the tank starts curving.

Sounds like blowing out some extra media is no loss.

I installed the hose connector(no restriction) and was able to see 8.2gpm. This gave me another 1.5 inch of media expansion. In general, the drain water is quite clean (even from iron) in about 3 minutes after the start. I'm doing backwash cycles once per day right now.
Looks like I need to reduce my bead depth from 39 till 30 inches as suggested...

I am not sure what the target for bed expansion should be, but I have thought 30% or 35% would be good targets. However clearly some others think that less is fine. Normal is top of tank would be 50% bed expansion.

 

[Bannerman]

The amount of bed expansion specified for KL media in Ditttohead's chart is 20-30% which is what the 10-15 GPM/ft2 was based on.
https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/155

 

[Bannerman]

Should the iron filter remove all the iron or some traces below 0.3 ppm is acceptable?

Iron below 0.3 ppm will be typically tolerable as it will not usually cause stain issues.

Ideally, complete removal would be preferable. Your 4.5 ppm iron is significant and may be more than your current quantity of KL media is capable to remove. Since the backwash flow rate for a 12" tank appears to be an issue, an option to utilize a larger quantity of KL would be to use 2 - 10" backwashing tanks which are plumbed in parallel so each tank would then filter 1/2 of the flow. With separate control valves, each tank would be programmed to backwash at a different time.

 

[ditttohead]

Since we are talking about KL, check this out... this is what happens when frequent adequate backwash does not occur. KL is amazing at red-ox of iron... but it must be cleaned properly and frequently...

 

[Charlie Bosco]

The amount of bed expansion specified for KL media in Ditttohead's chart is 20-30% which is what the 10-15 GPM/ft2 was based on.
https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/155

I just pulled my DLFC off my 10x54 KL tank. I have a Vortech with 2510AIO. It was set for 7gpm

Now @12.5gpm Max backwash that my pump can provide, I lost no media but sand and fines. My water is 77 degrees and seems to stay that way year round in south florida. After seeing what came out after pulling the DLFC I plan to keep it that way.

As I have learned here, the most back wash flow you can achieve without losing media is best practice.

 

[Bannerman]

As water softener resin is often back washed with up to 50% expansion, it would then appear there is sufficient margin above the 30% expansion recommended in the chart before media loss will occur.

Because KL media is heavier and requires a higher BW flow rate compared to WS resin, the pump and well capacity to expand KL media up to 50% will often be an issue. It was likely determined that 30% expansion will usually provide more than acceptable performance but it seems the sand, silt and other contaminants trapped within your KL media may require a higher BW rate to liberate them from the tank.

 

[Charlie Bosco]

As water softener resin is often back washed with up to 50% expansion, it would then appear there is sufficient margin above the 30% expansion recommended in the chart before media loss will occur.

Because KL media is heavier and requires a higher BW flow rate compared to WS resin, the pump and well capacity to expand KL media up to 50% will often be an issue. It was likely determined that 30% expansion will usually provide more than acceptable performance but it seems the sand, silt and other contaminants trapped within your KL media may require a higher BW rate to liberate them from the tank.

I checked the drain spot in my yard for any accumulation of KL from last night BW. I found no trace. But will keep monitoring. My carbon seems to like the 7gpm as well.

I'm hoping these max backwashes will increase the life of my media.

 

[Artem]

Since we are talking about KL, check this out... this is what happens when frequent adequate backwash does not occur. KL is amazing at red-ox of iron... but it must be cleaned properly and frequently...View attachment 67447

Yes yes yes! This is exactly what had happened to my KL filter, with an exception that FeO dominates in the water, so the big rock has a gray color. I was able to remove a half and soaking the rest in the Iron Out as Reach4 suggested (2 lb per 3 gal of water - my initiative)

Thing under crud in this photo https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/top-basket-jpg.66793/ but you may have a diffuser or nothing extra up there instead.

I took apart two filter assembles which I bought from commercial guys and haven't found this part. In my case just distributor goes right to the head. Should I buy the basket?

an option to utilize a larger quantity of KL would be to use 2 - 10" backwashing tanks which are plumbed in parallel so each tank would then filter 1/2 of the flow. With separate control valves, each tank would be programmed to backwash at a different time.

As you guys identified, I'm a victim of commercials So, based on my information, the 10 inch KL filter can keep up with 5gpm flow rate. In my case the highest flow rate we have is 3.6, which is the toilets(the shortest in time). Shower is about 1.6. Water softener is about 2.8gpm(the longest in time).
Do I really need two tanks in parallel? Can you suggest any methods to calculate it properly?

Now @12.5gpm Max backwash that my pump can provide, I lost no media but sand and fines.

I bet, this is the very good move! Just my two cents, did you check the actual flow? E.g. my pump can provide 9.5gpm without load, but I see just about 8.2gpm going through my 10 inch KL filter....

 

[Bannerman]

based on my information, the 10 inch KL filter can keep up with 5gpm flow rate.

I was not referring to the service flow rate but to the quantity of KL being possibly insufficient to remove your considerable 4.5 ppm iron.

Because you said about removing 1/2 of the media from the tank, I am not certain if your 10" X 54" tank now contains only 0.75 ft3 of KL, or 1/2 of the original 2 ft3 that had been originally within the 12" X 52" tank which could not be sufficiently back washed.

Because a 10" X 54" tank is suitable for 1.5 ft3 media, if the tank contains less than 1.5 ft3 of Katalox Light media, the capacity to remove iron will be further reduced.

As your well system appears to be capable of back washing a 10" tank, two tanks plumbed in parallel will allow up to 3.0 ft3 KL media to be utilized without requiring a higher BW flow rate as each tank would be back washed separately at a different time. If two 9" X 48" parallel tanks are used, that will allow for 2 ft3 media.

 

[Artem]

I was not referring to the service flow rate but to the quantity of KL being possibly insufficient to remove your considerable 4.5 ppm iron.

Because you said about removing 1/2 of the media from the tank, I am not certain if your 10" X 54" tank now contains only 0.75 ft3 of KL, or 1/2 of the original 2 ft3 that had been originally within the 12" X 52" tank which could not be sufficiently back washed.

As we discussed with Reach4, I filled 10 inch tank with KL 39 inches starting from the bottom. I bet, 30 inches is about 1.5 cf of media, so right now the tank should hold about 2cf of the media. Thank you for the explanation about two tanks in the parallel, does this mean that I can use two 10 inch tanks(0.75cf) connected in parallel or even 4 10 inch tanks (0.37cf)? Please note that the media depth is decreased, but the flow is decreased accordingly. So theoretically, are these setups interchangeable? Or I need to scale down tanks to keep the media depth above the manufacturer recommendations?
I still have the same question: Can you suggest any methods to calculate it properly? I mean, is it even calculatable or try and error is the best approach here?

 

[Bannerman]

One 10" X 54" tank should rightly contain 1.5 cu/ft (ft3) of media + freeboard. Two 10" parallel tanks will together allow a total 3 ft3 of media to be utilized.

 

[Artem]

Hi guys,

Sorry don't have a lot of updates due to the cold season and my hose is frozen most of the days so I'm using one 9 inch iron filter after Aer-Max with one backwash per 3 days. So far the Iron level out of iron filter and before softener is about 0.3 ppm.
Two tanks in parallel were giving about 0.09 ppm. Thank you, Bannerman, for the hint!

I have a quick question. I took apart my old softener from Eco Water and curious if I could reuse their tank (Their head died).
Please refer to attached pictures: EcoWater_softenerTank and EcoWater_softenerTank1 is the tank.
And 12InchTank is where I usually connect my Fleck heads.

Are you aware about any way to connect Fleck head to that type of tank, by any chance?

 

[ditttohead]

I may still have some of these in stock. It adpats the Eco tank to a standard tank neck thread. Send me a PM if you want me to check.