Flooding Basement from Well Pit

[Joseph Skoler]

I have (yet another) mystery.

I have a well pit (about 5' deep) outside an old house with a stone foundation.

The well pit has concrete walls and floor and in the center of the floor is the well, at the top of which is a well seal and out of that is PE pipe and wire that go underground and into the basement through a wall.

We had an enormous amount of rain the past few days and the basement is flooded.

I discovered that the water is pouring in around a pipe about 12" lower and 12" to the side of the well pipe.

I don't know what that pipe is.

My guess is it's an old well pipe.

Does anyone have any ideas on what to do next?

Here's some pics and a video.

 

[Reach4]

Best action: have the casing extended and a pitless installed. The casing should extend at least as high above as the local rules say.

If that is a steel casing, which it probably is, that should be extended by welding.

To install a pitless, a thruway pitless, such as MCK or SMCK can be installed. That is what I had done. The alternative is to have the well person weld up an adapter to larger casing, and that can accept a common trapezoidal pitless. When extending the pitless, I was required to have at least two walls demolished. Not everywhere will have that rule.

Temporary work-around is to put a utility pump in the pit, and a control that will turn the pump on before the water rises to the top of the casing. There is a concern about the output of that pump freezing.

If the pipe to the house is steel, consider getting that replaced. 3/4 inch polyethelene can run thru 1.25 steel to upgrade that.Mine is that way.

Mystery pipe could have been for an old deep-well jet pump. Or maybe it was a drain for the pit that used to connect in the basement to a sump with a pump.

So parting words:
1. Pits flood.
2. Well seals don't seal.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Joseph Skoler]

Best action: have the casing extended and a pitless installed. The casing should extend at least as high above as the local rules say.

If that is a steel casing, which it probably is, that should be extended by welding.

To install a pitless, a thruway pitless, such as MCK or SMCK can be installed. That is what I had done. The alternative is to have the well person weld up an adapter to larger casing, and that can accept a common trapezoidal pitless. When extending the pitless, I was required to have at least two walls demolished. Not everywhere will have that rule.

Temporary work-around is to put a utility pump in the pit, and a control that will turn the pump on before the water rises to the top of the casing. There is a concern about the output of that pump freezing.

If the pipe to the house is steel, consider getting that replaced. 3/4 inch polyethelene can run thru 1.25 steel to upgrade that.Mine is that way.

So parting words:
1. Pits flood.
2. Well seals don't seal.

The pit didn't flood.

The water is coming in only around the mystery iron pipe.

Maybe I'm not understanding, but don't we need to figure out where that water is coming from first? Perhaps what the mystery is, where it's coming from, etc.?

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

Define flood as you see it. If the water rose as high as the mystery pipe, I would call that flooding. The water is not going to rise higher than the top of the casing, because at that point, the dirty water will leak into the well.

Maybe I'm not understanding, but don't we need to figure out where that water is coming from first? Perhaps what the mystery is, where it's coming from, etc.?

I suspect "ground water". But yet you have accumulated some mud on the pit floor over the years. So I am thinking shallow ground water washing some mud in with it.

 

[Joseph Skoler]

Define flood as you see it. If the water rose as high as the mystery pipe, I would call that flooding. The water is not going to rise higher than the top of the casing, because at that point, the dirty water will leak into the well.


I suspect "ground water". But yet you have accumulated some mud on the pit floor over the years. So I am thinking shallow ground water washing some mud in with it.

The mystery pipe is in the basement.

The water is entering the basement immediately around the mystery pipe.

But, I think I understand now that a possible scenario is that water got into the pit, collected on the floor of the pit and rose the couple of inches to the top of the well casing. What I don't understand is how that could explain water coming in around the mystery pipe.

 

[Reach4]

Got it now. No known connection to the well pit, other than being in the same vicinity.

Couple of ideas... maybe there is a floor drain in the bottom of the pit that connects to that pipe. Maybe try cleaning up the bottom of the pit with a wet-dry vac, and see if anything appears. My pit had a drain hole in the bottom that I think probably fed into an area with gavel under the pit. An alternative test may be to blow air into the mystery pipe, and see if bubbles appear in the pit or elsewhere.

Maybe the pipe ran to a dry well and was intended to accept the softener drain line output.

I cleaned up the floor of my pit with a fair amount laundry detergent and water. I sucked out the water. Added more, and scrubbed with a broom. When I started getting soap suds in my well water, I got motivated to get the casing extended.

 

[Joseph Skoler]

Good thinking!

Will clean pit floor tomorrow and see what is discovered.

I can't say I understand what "was intended to accept the softener drain line output" means. The pipe is threaded steel and I would guess is a minimum of 40 years old and possibly much older, if that helps. I always assumed it was somehow part of an old heating system, but I don't know how that would jive with it turning outward through the old stone foundation wall.

I wonder if there is a casing extension that can be handled DIY? Like a fernco or other screw/clamp on piece.

Thanks!

 

[Reach4]

There may be states that allow a Dresser coupling to extend steel, but I think most require welding.

 

[Joseph Skoler]

I cleaned the floor of the well pit today. I did not see any indications that the pit had flooded, from rain or groundwater or from an overflowing well.

There is a drain pipe in the well pit, but I don't know where it goes.

I completely dug up the trench between the well pit and house and found water gushing into it.

But, I don't know where it's coming from.

I initially thought the old iron pipe between the well pit and the house had a leak, but I don't think that's the case.

It looks like the water is originating on the side of the well pit -- adjacent to the side where the water pipe and electric lines exit the pit. Or, the water is originating from under the well pit.

I ran out of daylight, so I have to continue the digging tomorrow.

A couple of oddities (to me, at least). I shut off the electric to the well and then closed a valve on the well water pipe (yes, I know, there shouldn't be on, but there is and I didn't put it there). When I opened the valve back up, the pressure relief valve on the boiler fresh water input spit out water and continued to do so. When I turned on the electric to the pump, the flow out of the pressure relief valve increased. Logically, this would indicate that the pressure in the line exceeded the relief valve's trigger pressure. But, why would that happen? Is there another explanation?

Meanwhile, the basement is still flooded.

Tough day.

 

[Reach4]

Where does the pipe connected to the elbow go indoors?

Meanwhile, the basement is still flooded.

Where does mystery pipe connect indoors? And where does the boiler pressure relief put its water? Those aren't connected, are they?

I put a sump for a sump pump in a basement that had no sump before. You might consider that. The water you see may not be coming through that mystery pipe, but just the hole that the mystery pipe passes through.

 

[Joseph Skoler]

Where does the pipe connected to the elbow go indoors?



Where does mystery pipe connect indoors? And where does the boiler pressure relief put its water? Those aren't connected, are they?

I put a sump for a sump pump in a basement that had no sump before. You might consider that. The water you see may not be coming through that mystery pipe, but just the hole that the mystery pipe passes through.

the mystery pipe just ends, with an open end on the pipe. Water does not come out of the open end. It comes in around the pipe as it passes from outside to inside through the stone foundation wall.

I think I was wrong when I called it a presure relief valve. It’s on a hydronic heating boiler. on one side is the fresh water feed and the other the secondary loop. I think it’s a backflow preventer.

 

[Reach4]

the mystery pipe just ends, with an open end on the pipe. Water does not come out of the open end. It comes in around the pipe as it passes from outside to inside through the stone foundation wall.

So that is normal for basements in many areas if there is no drain tile system. Adding a sump would be my recommendation.
You could try to seal around that pipe outside. But getting a basement (that is not poured) sealed is pretty much not going to work IMO.

I think I was wrong when I called it a presure relief valve. It’s on a hydronic heating boiler. on one side is the fresh water feed and the other the secondary loop. I think it’s a backflow preventer.

If it emits water, it would be the pressure relief valve. Your auto-fill valve may leak. Your thermal expansion tank may have failed, or at least needs the air precharge to be adjusted.

If leaky auto-fill, closing the valve in series with that will prevent the over-filling.

 

[Joseph Skoler]

Sorry for the confusing information.

It is definitely the Watt B9-11S-M3 combination auto fill and backflow preventer. I'm hoping that the water was being released from the vent opening because of the non-existent pressure on the house side.

The basement does have a sump pit and pump. The floatation ball got stuck on the concrete side wall of the sump pit. Gotta figure out how to prevent that from happening again.

I'm focused now on figuring out where is there so much water underground around the well pit area. My mind wanders to the idea that the water table rises when it rains heavily and the water water in the well casing overflows the top.

Thank you so much for all your help. I'll report back later with (hopefully) more findings.

 

[Valveman]

If the well was so full it was overflowing the water would be coming out around the wire and rope. Because as was said, well seals don't seal. Pits like that are illegal in most states these days and a pitless adapter should be in your near future. Because it floods after a big rain I would guess that is ground water seeping through the wall. Extending the casing and adding a pitless will probably be easier than trying to seal the pit walls.

If the water pressure in you tank does not fall over time when no water is being used, the water is not likely coming from the well or pump.

 

[Joseph Skoler]

If the well was so full it was overflowing the water would be coming out around the wire and rope. Because as was said, well seals don't seal. Pits like that are illegal in most states these days and a pitless adapter should be in your near future. Because it floods after a big rain I would guess that is ground water seeping through the wall. Extending the casing and adding a pitless will probably be easier than trying to seal the pit walls.

If the water pressure in you tank does not fall over time when no water is being used, the water is not likely coming from the well or pump.

I'm still exploring.

This is what it looked like first thing this morning.

I'll be digging back around the side of the well pit to try to figure out where the water is coming from.

I'm completely stumped at this point.

 

[Reach4]

I'm focused now on figuring out where is there so much water underground around the well pit area. My mind wanders to the idea that the water table rises when it rains heavily and the water water in the well casing overflows the top.

You could dig another hole or two away from the well to see if the high ground water is only around the well, or is elsewhere too. You did a lot of digging. I don't know if that is because you have a really nice digging machine, or you were just a really motivated hard worker with a shovel.

Regarding your sump, two thoughts come to mind.
1. A different switch method could be used. The Basement Watchdog Universal Dual Float Switch with Controller has two floats in a small cage. I think the two floats are for redundancy. To do that, you could just remove the float so that the existing switch stays on. Then plug the sump pump into the new controller.

There are others. That Basement Watchdog works by running a fixed number of seconds after it trips. That run time may be too long for your small pit. There are other controllers including some with two probes that set the on-level and off level independently.

2. The volume of your sump is small so your pump will cycle on and off frequently. You could consider enlarging that pit. One way would be to make a pit along side, and connecting the existing small and new large pits.

 

[Joseph Skoler]

I had a real archaeological day yesterday.

Determined to identify the origin or source of the water, I dug deeper outside the house, below the water and electric lines.

I discovered a large clay pipe. Inside that pipe is run an iron pipe. That iron pipe is the well pit drain pipe, and it runs from the well pit into the basement. That is my mystery pipe. Interestingly, I've never seen any water come out of it into the basement.

The clay pipe does not extend into the basement. Only the iron pipe extends through the basement wall.

But, the water was pouring into the basement around that iron (mystery) pipe for the past couple of days.

And, the now very large trench leading from the well pit to the house was still getting water.

So I pulled the well pump (a skill I learned from you both!). While the well casing has plenty of rust, I saw no break or defect in the well casing, and found no hole in the pipe from well head to pump, and the well water level is about 15' down from the top. So, while relieved I didn't have a well-related issue, I still did not have a source the water.

So I dug more around the large concrete well pit, following the direction from which the water came.

It seems there is some sort of underground stream, about 42" below the surface.

The land behind the well pit and house rises behind it. That is, the elevation increases as one moves back away from the house. And, the dirt is very heavy clay.

That is as far as I got yesterday, even with the mini-excavator (couldn't possibly do all this without it).

Last night started 48 hours of rain, so there is going to a massive mess.

My curiousity leads me to continue digging to see what this mystery aquifer is, but my practical side says I should divert this water away from the well pit and house.

I'm also pushing myself to replace the pit to house water and electric lines (now that the trench is open), and figure out an alternative to the clay pipe with iron pipe from pit to house solution.

Any suggestions?

Here's some media.

 

[Joseph Skoler]

More pics

 

[Joseph Skoler]

And some video:

 

[Joseph Skoler]

Here's an update:

Turns out there was no leak from any part of the well system (not the pipe between pump and head, nor the pipe from head under ground into the basement; nor the casing, etc.).

The mystery pipe turned out to be an old 4" clay pipe that I believe is called a tile drain and ran from the bottom of the well pipe (coming out the bottom well pit wall) to the bottom of my basement wall. At some point in the past, someone inserted an iron pipe into the opening of the clay pipe in the basement (only several inches in) and sealed between the iron pipe and clay pipe with cement. It seems the system was designed so that if water got into the well pit it would drain via the clay pipe into the basement.

My source of the water is simply underground water accumulating by rain. My area's soil is mostly clay and rock, with changes in that mix every few feet of depth. The clay makes percolation extremely slow and often impossible. I dug a huge area, about 6' deep and about 150' long as part of a french drain and hit plenty of water stuck in the ground.

I replaced the iron pipe from the well head to the house with 1-1/4" poly while I had it open. I also broke out the clay pipe from the basement and sealed the hole with hydraulic cement. I connected the clay pipe exiting the well pipe to 4" drain pipe and continued that solid (non-perforated) pipe through the new french drain.

We haven't had a heavy rain since then, so I don't know if all is well, but I have hope.

Thank you all so very much for your help!

Pics to follow.