(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 61

Thread: Boiler going into "lockout" mode

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,772

    Default wazzat?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobL43 View Post
    . Several years ago, when I did not feel like doing it anymore, I asked a friend of mine to service it for me, and he used a B******ch (spelling?)
    looks like the analyzer's name was spelled correctly as I wrote it, and was auto censored. Anyway, it is pronounced like Back er Rat
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  2. #17
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,412

    Default

    The shutoff after the timeout is because the sensor is not (always?) seeing that the flame is actually lit. Somewhere in the manual, they should tell you the resistance valve or voltage output of the sensor. On some, I think it is just a voltage divider circuit, so in that case, you can check the voltage. If it is detecting the light, it would also output a voltage. It may be that it's getting weak, and the voltage it produces is marginal, or the controller sensitivity is marginal. It could be that the controller sensitivity is adjustable, and if it is, it could just be a dirty wiper arm on the pot that would be cleaned if you turned it a little, then turned it back to where it was. Don't know the specifics of that sensor...some detect the heat, some detect the light, and neither works well if covered in crud, is misaligned, or the contacts to it are corroded or loose. Because the resistance is critical, if the contacts are push on, you might just try removing them and reinstalling them. This sliding will tend to clean the connector. But, the manual often will say to check either voltage or resistance under certain conditions and give you the values. My guess is that it won't go from zero to some high value like a switch, but will be some intermediate value that changes, either in voltage because of the light, or resistance (which normally would be a thermocouple rather than a CAD cell). Sorry, don't know the specifics of your setup, but these generalities may help you understand the manual, which is often written for a tech with training, and greek to many others.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  3. #18
    DIY Member watson524's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Well I finally got smart and started using the temp control on the boilermate as my way to make a call vs running up and down the steps to the wall thermostat and making the house hot :-)

    I went down, all was quite and not locked out (makes sense, nothing had needed it). I turned up the temp setting on the boilermate, I heard the relay make the loud clip on the argo panel, the power venter come on but never the loud "woosh" of the thing firing up so I wanted and after 45 seconds, it locked out. Ok good, so I turn back the temp control to stop the call and let the PV run it's 3 minute expunge cycle and now we're at nothing calling, and boiler locked out. So I hit the reset on the primary control, and all is quite because nothing is calling for it (unlike other tests where something is still calling). So I turn up the temp control on the boilermate to get a call, and the thing works fine and runs the cycle.

    100% of the time it fires right up after lockout when I hit the reset and never has an issue. And now I know it doesn't matter if you hit the reset when something is calling for it or not. Since the resistance is reading ok when firing and not, the eye is clean, the nozzle is the same size used for years, the electrodes are at correct spacing specs, I think I am going to replace the primary control before I call someone just to see if that is it. I mean what the heck, it's worth the $65 for my own learning and so I don't get a guy up here and find out it was something that dumb that I could have dealt with myself.

    Not sure what you mean about the motor turning over when I saw it go off on flame out. I can't really hear the motor when it's running because of the "woosh" of the burning itself and obviously can't look in there to see if it's turning when it's running so.... Is there some other way I can check that?

    It just seems like this thing doesn't think it gets enough love down there in the basement and wants me to come visit to burp it each time. Cripes.

  4. #19
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,772

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by watson524 View Post
    Well I finally got smart and started using the temp control on the boilermate as my way to make a call vs running up and down the steps to the wall thermostat and making the house hot :-)

    I went down, all was quite and not locked out (makes sense, nothing had needed it). I turned up the temp setting on the boilermate, I heard the relay make the loud clip on the argo panel, the power venter come on but never the loud "woosh" of the thing firing up so I wanted and after 45 seconds, it locked out. Ok good, so I turn back the temp control to stop the call and let the PV run it's 3 minute expunge cycle and now we're at nothing calling, and boiler locked out. So I hit the reset on the primary control, and all is quite because nothing is calling for it (unlike other tests where something is still calling). So I turn up the temp control on the boilermate to get a call, and the thing works fine and runs the cycle.

    100% of the time it fires right up after lockout when I hit the reset and never has an issue. And now I know it doesn't matter if you hit the reset when something is calling for it or not. Since the resistance is reading ok when firing and not, the eye is clean, the nozzle is the same size used for years, the electrodes are at correct spacing specs, I think I am going to replace the primary control before I call someone just to see if that is it. I mean what the heck, it's worth the $65 for my own learning and so I don't get a guy up here and find out it was something that dumb that I could have dealt with myself.

    Not sure what you mean about the motor turning over when I saw it go off on flame out. I can't really hear the motor when it's running because of the "woosh" of the burning itself and obviously can't look in there to see if it's turning when it's running so.... Is there some other way I can check that?

    It just seems like this thing doesn't think it gets enough love down there in the basement and wants me to come visit to burp it each time. Cripes.
    what I meant about the motor turning: whe the burner starts up, the primary control the 8184G, I think you said you have, will power up the motor first and turn the blower wheel and pre-purge the boiler of fumes if the G model does that for about 15 seconds. After the pre-purge, the controller will energize the fuel oil solenoid and the ignitor on top of the burner; when that happens, you normally hear a distinct (at least to me :-) change of sound when the then sprayed oil ignites. So my question again is, when you get the lock out, does the burner make the wooshing sound, and no flame?
    Oops! I looked up the 8184G, and it LOOKS like it does not have the pre-purge cycle. I guess then I'll have to re-phrase my question: At the call for heat for a lock out DOES it make any woosh sound? If it the motor does not turn and blow air and pump oil to the nozzle, then the cad cell will of course see no flame and shut the system down. The primaries I've worked with all have the pre-purge and some have a post purge cycle as well.
    Sorry for the long winded replies. Sometimes its hard to express things, and I do phone tech support for a living now, but not in plumbing or HVAC LOL
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  5. #20
    DIY Member watson524's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    95

    Default

    I found in my stack of manuals were you can pull the CAD cell and check for resistance with room light vs dark. At room light, it's supposed to read < 10k ohm so I set my tester to 20k and it read 3.89 - 4 on the pins at the back of the cell so that checks out. At dark (I put my thumb over it), it's supposed to read > 50k ohm so I set the tester to 200k and it read between 57 and 58 so I believe that all checks out.

    There doesn't appear to be a wiper or anything on my setup and other than the yellow wires on the F terminals on the primary control, I can't get to the ends of the wires on the eye because they're integrated into the unit. I can only see the pins on the back of the CAD cell and those were clean when I pulled it.

    It looks like this (except the eye part doesn't have the silver band at the top and has the numbers 21K1757 and 1024 on it)


    Also, when I made it call, it crapped out again but when the PV and motor (was running, I got 2.7v on the F screws on the primary control). It went in to lockout and still I got 2.7v on the F terminals. After I reset it and all was running normally, I am getting .3V on the F screws.

    As for the motor and all that, I don't have that pre purge. The argo panel gets the call, the PV comes on and almost instantly, I get the big "woosh" of burning flame when all is normal. When it goes into lockout, I am definitely hearing the motor during the 45 second pre lockout period and after lockout. I've also been able to hear it during normal operation so I would say the motor is turning normall at all times, it's just that unless I am starting it by hitting the reset, I never get the "woosh" of ignition.
    Last edited by watson524; 06-21-2011 at 11:40 AM. Reason: added more info

  6. #21
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,772

    Default

    If your oil burner has a fuel valve with the solenoid, check for 115VAC on the coil wires; the more we go over this, the more it seems like the primary control is the culprit. If the motor turns the pump and blower, all else required for flame is fuel and ignition. If the ignitor is bad or the fuel solenoid is bad, the problem would probably not be so consistently repeatable as you have it.
    Bear in mind that my advice is from a DIY homeowner with some experience on this stuff, but I don't want to make you buy a new controller if its not needed. Then again, "I" have a spare part for everything in my burner including the blower wheel, pump coupling and air tube with "nose cone", fuel filters, screen; everything other than the main casting . In the middle of the Winter, if my system went out, I just want to get it going again ASAP.

    Good Luck,

    Bob
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  7. #22
    DIY Member watson524's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Ok on the solenoid, the burner book mentions it and it shows what I believe I have in the picture circled in red. There's 2 wires (in romex tubing) coming out going into the primary control box, one is white, one is purple. If this is a solenoid, where would I put the multimeter leads to test?

    I asked my husband to stop on the way home and get a primary control. I look at it this way, it's worth a shot to swap it after I've tried everything else I can reasonably and safely do and if it works, great! Problem solved. If not, one went before, this one will eventually go, so I'll have a spare and then call a pro :-)


  8. #23
    DIY Member watson524's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    95

    Default

    No go on the primary control being the issue. Replaced it with same exact one, wired the same way, same dumb behavior. At this point I call UNCLE and will call the oil company tomorrow.

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by watson524 View Post
    Ok on the solenoid, the burner book mentions it and it shows what I believe I have in the picture circled in red. There's 2 wires (in romex tubing) coming out going into the primary control box, one is white, one is purple. If this is a solenoid, where would I put the multimeter leads to test?

    I asked my husband to stop on the way home and get a primary control. I look at it this way, it's worth a shot to swap it after I've tried everything else I can reasonably and safely do and if it works, great! Problem solved. If not, one went before, this one will eventually go, so I'll have a spare and then call a pro :-)

    yes, that is the fuel solenoid. measuring the voltage to it is done at the insode of the junction box that the controller mounts on top of. It is a little tricky, because you have to clip your test leads to the two solenoid wires after memoving the controller flipping it upside down. when the solenoid is supposed to be energized, it should be receiving 115 volts AC between its 2 wires. Be careful there.
    Hopefully you already installed the new controller and it fixed the problem?
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  10. #25
    DIY Member watson524's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Ok I don't know that I could measure the voltage because I'd have to have the wire nuts off where things are joined together which may cause other issues (loose connection?) But on the controller front... new one is in, issue persists. :-(

  11. #26
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,772

    Default

    Good try though; I give yo credit for that
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  12. #27
    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    2,942

    Default

    Refer to post # 4 before you wind up spending a whole lot of money replacing things that are not bad.

  13. #28
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,772

    Default

    Nobody can argue with that, as it covers everything. The OP was determined to fix it. yeah, maybe it is as simple as a plugged filter. That normally causes some cavitation screaming though.
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

  14. #29
    DIY Member watson524's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    95

    Default

    How would I check a plugged filter or strainer though? I know I have a filter right over next to the tanks before it goes into the line to come over to the boiler which looks like a car oil filter (screw on type I think).

  15. #30
    DIY Senior Member BobL43's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    1,772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by watson524 View Post
    How would I check a plugged filter or strainer though? I know I have a filter right over next to the tanks before it goes into the line to come over to the boiler which looks like a car oil filter (screw on type I think).
    That's something where you can make a real mess with if you do something wrong. I haven't seen a setup with the filter up on top, as I am only a DIYer and have seen only my system and a few friends and family's setups, which all had the filter near floor level a few feet away from the burner and the tank fed the oil to the filter by gravity plus the suction from the pump. They have a shutoff valve just before the filter (tank side of filter). You really can't check the filter flow, but if you have a spare cartridge, you can replace it by shutting off the valve I mentioned; depending on what filter setup you have, draining the filter, cleaning the housing up from any sludge or other crap, replacing the cartridge and any gaskets (some are tiny). Big thing here is besides the potential for making a big mess and flooding your basement or wherever with fuel oil, is that after you do this, you need to bleed the air out of the oil line from the filter to the pump and prime the pump in the process. I think the best thing to do is get a tech there for your own safety and piece of mind, and watch what he or she does so if you really want to do this, you'll see how its done.
    I have asked for DIY help in these great groups here too, and have received help that was very to the point. Lots of questions asked here are by DIYers that may not even be allowed to be done by some municipalities by the homeowner, but if a DIYer is determined to do it by themselves anyway, legal or not, they may as well get some help from a pro that will at least make the work get done as it should be done instead
    of not. Good answers do not insure that it will be done right, but they probably offer the info needed to do so.

    Get a tech there see what's done and take it as education.
    I am definitely not a pro plumber, but I am a pro crastinator

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-09-2010, 07:52 AM
  2. Heater "Vacation" mode
    By liam51 in forum Water Heater Forum, Tanks
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-22-2009, 06:50 AM
  3. "Machine Gun" or "Thud" and a Weeping Toilet...oh my!
    By maxxis in forum Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & Tricks
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-22-2009, 07:38 PM
  4. Difference between "thinset" and "dryset" mortar...?
    By Fistor in forum Remodel Forum & Blog
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-31-2008, 02:44 PM
  5. Say "no" to the AS Champion toilet & "yes" to Toto
    By badeb in forum Toilet Forum discussions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-18-2006, 09:32 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •