Well sucking air

[wiley8192]

Hello,

I am in need of some help with my well. We purchased a house that has a single line jet pump setup with a supposedly 85’ deep well.

The problem I am having is air shooting out of the faucets. You can hear it going through the Js5h Gould’s pump as well.

I have checked the pressure tank charge and confirmed bladder isn’t broken. I have tried plumbers putty on all joints above ground on the suction pipe.

One thing I read online is that using a shallow well pump like the JS5H Gould’s in a deep well can cause cavitation and result in air in the lines. Could that be my problem?

Otherwise how could I test for the well going dry or a hole in the suction pipe? Also getting some silt/dirt particles in the water. Line from well head to the pump has been replaced. Does the vertical pipe in the ground go bad often? Well is very old no records at all.

Any help is appreciated, thanks

 

[Bannerman]

The limit to lift water vertically by suction with a jet pump is approx 25' @ sea level. If the static level in the well is less than 25', the pump should be able to draw water from the well. If the water level should drop in the well while pumping to exceed 25' lift, then the pump will not be capable of drawing it. For every 1000' elevation above sea level, the vertical lift distance will decrease by about 2'.

To lift water with a jet pump that is greater than 24' from the elevation of the pump inlet will require a 2-pipe jet pump with 2 pipes running into the well casing, and a 2-1 pipe jet adaptor located within the well casing with the jet adaptor located less than 24' from the water level.

You didn't specify if the pump is actually delivering water but only mention air shooting from faucets. Jet pumps are not efficient at pumping air which is mainly why priming the suction line is necessary, but it is possible for the pump to move some air when the water level is below the foot valve at the end of the suction pipe within the well, or when there is leakage anywhere in the suction line including the drop pipe within the well.

You mention sealing joints above ground but I anticipate to prevent freezing, the exterior horizontal run between the pump location and the wellhead will be buried below the frost line and will likely utilize a pitless adaptor where the buried pipe connection pentrates the well casing. A pitless adaptor will present a potential leakage point particularly if the O-ring seal between the vertical to horizontal connection is worn and allowing air to leak into the connection.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

I have tried plumbers putty on all joints

Plumbers putty is not for sealing pipe joints subject to pressure. Use a quality pipe dope such as T-U type 555.
https://www.jcwhitlam.com/Product/1/111/176#

Cavitation does not produce air in the lines that persists and spits out at faucets. The noise created by cavitation is from the collapse of gas bubbles back into liquid.

 

[wiley8192]

The limit to lift water vertically by suction with a jet pump is approx 25' @ sea level. If the static level in the well is less than 25', the pump should be able to draw water from the well. If the water level should drop in the well while pumping to exceed 25' lift, then the pump will not be capable of drawing it. For every 1000' elevation above sea level, the vertical lift distance will decrease by about 2'.

To lift water with a jet pump that is greater than 24' from the elevation of the pump inlet will require a 2-pipe jet pump with 2 pipes running into the well casing, and a 2-1 pipe jet adaptor located within the well casing with the jet adaptor located less than 24' from the water level.

You didn't specify if the pump is actually delivering water but only mention air shooting from faucets. Jet pumps are not efficient at pumping air which is mainly why priming the suction line is necessary, but it is possible for the pump to move some air when the water level is below the foot valve at the end of the suction pipe within the well, or when there is leakage anywhere in the suction line including the drop pipe within the well.

You mention sealing joints above ground but I anticipate to prevent freezing, the exterior horizontal run between the pump location and the wellhead will be buried below the frost line and will likely utilize a pitless adaptor where the buried pipe connection pentrates the well casing. A pitless adaptor will present a potential leakage point particularly if the O-ring seal between the vertical to horizontal connection is worn and allowing air to leak into the connection.

Thank you for the information, I am getting an adequate amount of water from the well I have no complaints there. The only concern is the air shooting/sputtering out.

This pump was just replaced before we purchased the house and they ran a smaller diameter line inside the original rotted out horizontal run out to the well head, basically using the original pipe as a shell around the new pipe. I have not removed the cap to look at the leakage point you mention. I will check that out.

Another thing I found interesting is there was a 2nd line left in the foundation wall going out to the well head. This makes me think maybe it was originally a 2 line setup and a 1 line was installed now not being able to suck up the 85'.

 

[Reach4]

Otherwise how could I test for the well going dry or a hole in the suction pipe?

Slather all suction line joints, including the connection to the pump input itself, with shaving foam. Pump water, and look for places where air is sucking in through the foam.

 

[Bannerman]

As the pump is delivering water, then the water level in the well is within the 25' elevation differential range to the pump inlet. If not clear from the prior narrative, even if the foot valve is located 80' deep into the well, the pump will only be drawing the distance from the top of the water.

As air is being delivered with water, although it may seem like a lot of air, expect the leak will be quite small. Because air will pass through an opening with less restriction compared to water, the leak must be small otherwise, the air leak will reduce the remaining available suction to prevent water from being drawn from the well.

 

[Bannerman]

Since you can apparently hear air passing through the pump, I anticipate the source of air leakage will not be a water softener or other water treatment system as they should normally be connected to pressurized plumbing past the pump and pressure tank. To reduce assumptions, is there any water softener or other water treatment device, and if so, where is each located in relation to the well pump?

 

[wiley8192]

Since you can apparently hear air passing through the pump, I anticipate the source of air leakage will not be a water softener or other water treatment system as they should normally be connected to pressurized plumbing past the pump and pressure tank. To reduce assumptions, is there any water softener or other water treatment device, and if so, where is each located in relation to the well pump?

There are no water treatment systems. The problem took a turn for the worse last night the well started sucking almost only air causing long run times to reach the cut out pressure. I removed the horizontal superpex pipe (ran inside the original horizontal run) going from the well head to the inlet of the pump and checked for freeze cracks/holes. It is not damaged and has no leaks. I sprayed shaving foam on the accessible suction joints and see no movement.

I'm providing a picture of my setup in and outdoors. At this point I think either the well is dry or there is a hole in the suction pipe going into the ground. Would a bad foot valve cause this?

Looking at the well head I see no access where I could open it up and see how the horizontal attaches to the vertical.

 

[wiley8192]

Also when I removed the horizontal suction line going into the house, it was dry. Somehow it has drained itself out and it is not leaking above ground.

 

[Reach4]

There are lots of visible joints in the suction line, both in the basement and the pit. Maybe 12 in the basement, and maybe 4 in the pit. I see only one wad of shaving cream. The union counts as three joints.

Looks like there is a check valve just upstream of the elbow near the pump. Is it?

But what is really strange to me is that vertical piece of white pex in the well pit. It looks like a vent. If that is a reducing tee that elbows into, the pump would never have worked. So rather than a simple reducing tee, that would have to be some special fitting.

Is there anything right at the waterline in the pit? For me, the "well seal" was at the waterline. The "well seal" did not seal. So that is why I got the pit demolished and a pitless adapter installed. But that is not going to work for you. I had a 4 inch well, and I think you probably have a 2 inch well.

Now if you pumped out the pit with a utility pump and found you had a 4 inch steel casing below, that would be surprising. It would open up possibilities. But I don't think that is the case.

A new 5 inch well with a submersible pump and a pitless adapter would probably be a good investment. Those are the last words that you want to hear. Big bucks.

 

[LLigetfa]

But what is really strange to me is that vertical piece of white pex in the well pit. It looks like a vent. If that is a reducing tee that elbows into, the pump would never have worked. So rather than a simple reducing tee, that would have to be some special fitting.

My guess it is not a simple Tee but rather a two-pipe adapter. I wonder if the packer is still in the well? Maybe the packer's jet is mixing air into the stream? There is no need for a vent so I would remove that standpipe and plug the port on the Tee.

How far is the well from the house? I would replace the old pipe rather than reduce its size. I would also consider going back to a two-pipe deep well configuration.

 

[Bannerman]

I see no access where I could open it up and see how the horizontal attaches to the vertical.

You are able to view the horizontal connection as it is the pipe connected to the top of the well casing. I initially assumed your well was larger in diameter and utilized a pitless adaptor. Your photos clarify the well casing is only about 2" in diameter and the wellhead is located within a pit. Your pit provides much easier access to the pipe connection compared to a pitless adaptor which will be typically located 4'-6' below the soil surface. Unfortunately, pits are prone to flooding which can often lead to runoff contamination of a well.

I agree with LL's guess that the Tee on top is a two-pipe adapter. I anticipate there is a smaller diameter suction drop pipe inside the centre of the outer 2" steel pipe. The space between the inner and outer pipes will normally be used for supplying water from a 2-pipe jet pump so a packer located down deep within the larger pipe, will redirect the additional water upward to assist to lift water from the well when the vertical distance to the pump exceeds 25'.

It is likely no foot valve is currently installed at the end of the drop pipe, which is why the check valve was placed at the inlet to the pump. Without a foot valve, once you disconnected the pipe leading from the well to the check valve, the water within the pipe will have drained back to the well. You now have a situation as there is currently no easy method to prime the pump since that will require filling the suction pipe with water all the way back to the well without the water draining out from the pipe into the well.

I suspect the open vent to the outer perimeter of the casing to be a DIY modification, not something done by an experienced well professional. Perhaps if it was DIY, the open end of the drop pipe may also have placed only a short distance below the water level in the casing at the time. If so, the pump could then suck air if the water is removed more rapidly than water can enter the casing from the surrounding soil. In my location in Ontario, it has been some time since we have received substantial rain so I expect the groundwater level will be lower than usual as a result.

You had previously mentioned a second pipe, possibly for a prior 2-pipe deep well pump. While the 2nd pipe may continue to be present through the foundation wall where the pump is located, I don't see a 2nd pipe currently entering the well pit. Perhaps the 2nd pipe running through the pit is the one you see leading back to the house foundation.

Edit to add link to diagram for deep well configuation:
https://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl...hUKEwijzM3LgeHwAhUU_6wKHXO8CF0QMygFegUIARCdAQ

 

[Dimegirl]

I have a 4 inch split well seal on my water well and noticed that it is starting to leak or spray water from the top of the well seal...This happens off and on.

This is not suppose to be an on going thing. I bought a new well seal, pressure gauge & air vent to screw in the well seal.
I am getting 2 opinions

-Its not broke and wells do this
(Leave good enough alone )
-it should be fixed before it is a bigger problem

I just built a new well house and du not want to put in flooring yet because of this matter.

What should I do 1st ?
(I have all these parts just sitting here)

Thanks,
-Marie

 

[Reach4]

have a 4 inch split well seal on my water well and noticed that it is starting to leak sor spray water from the top of the well seal...This is not suppose to be an on going thing. I bought a new well seal, pressure gauge & air vent to screw in the well seal.
I am getting 2 opinions

Where is the pump? Down the well (and wires go down the well), on top of the casing, or somewhere else?

If somewhere else such as in the well house but not on the casing, how many pipe connect the well and the pump?

 

[LLigetfa]

I bought a new well seal, pressure gauge & air vent to screw in the well seal.

From your description, it sounds like you have a flowing artesian well. Not sure where a pressure gauge and air vent would go on a well seal.
https://www.bcgwa.org/flowing-artesian-water-well-control-methods/

 

[Valveman]

Spraying from under the well seal means something is leaking. It is not the well seal but a pipe or fitting underneath. And it needs to be fixed.