Vent question, no room to do it right, lesser of 2 evils?

[Gellfex]

I don't know what world you live in but in 99% of the country gas piping is tested and inspected three times. Once by the plumber, once by the mechanical inspector and finally by the gas company. Sand holes are a fact of life but I guarantee that someone down the chain would have found it before you did because leak testing is mandatory. So tell me, how are you going to test that connection to the vent? Explain the process to me. You posted here because you couldn't figure how to make a simple connection so now you expect us to believe that you know how to test this connection? Here's a hint; draining the sink tells you nothing.

mtcummings; I call shinnanagins on you. 30 years ago the whole bribe thing may have been standard operating procedure but these days inspectors value their jobs too much to get caught taking money. I'm not saying it never happens but it's pretty damn rare. What inspector in their right minds would risk loosing a municipal job with benefits and retirement for a few bucks on the side? With today's video cameras and cell phones it would be the easiest thing in the world to expose them.
I have heard your arguments for years and years and again, maybe it happens rarely but it damn sure is not common. the other thing that blows a hole in your theory is that if an inspector signs work off on a bribe and later on there is a liability issue, who's neck do you suppose is in the noose? Yep, that would be the inspectors.

Nice try though.

I admitted I don't know how to test a 2" vent. Assuming the joints are tight I can't see how it fails unless it's a long run improperly pitched. Not possible in this case where the run from riser to the stack is less than a foot. Triple testing gas work? Maybe where you live but certainly not here when I've hired plumbers and had permits. Like I said, no one tests at all, but me. The local utility actually left a leak when they installed a new regulator in the basement. It appears where you live people take the process more seriously. Perhaps the lax work here has led me to believe it was all theater not true safety.

Tom, I'm certain you're a well meant guy, arguing with some who's right in the letter of the law is pointless, and when this little piece of work is done I'll think twice before starting another unpermitted job. Hopefully, I'll have some real work by then. Looking over this thread I'm unhappy I've let myself slip into antagonizing someone who's main reason to be here is to help. I usually just shake my head when I read pissing matches, and here I am in one. That's not the point of the forum, and I apologize to you and the moderators.

PS: My epiphany came this morning when I got a ticket for a rolling stop at the end of my block, my 1st moving violation in 13 years. I'm quick to saddle my high horse about obeying traffic speed and signals to protect the many pedestrians and kids, and there I was. It was food for thought as I went on my way that Tom is not wrong in the laws being there for a reason. I think I'm too smart and cautious to seriously screw up (I've seen zip cord buried in plaster!) but it's true what you don't know, you don't know.

 

[Bluebinky]

My god, you guy's are right. We should scrap the whole permit, inspection, license thing and let folks do whatever they want. The entire system is rife with corruption. Plumbers cutting corners and paying off inspectors so they can make a quick buck at the expense of the unsuspecting homeowner. There's no need to stop with plumbers either. We should dump all permits and licenses. It's all a big scam to make money for the man.

Good to see you still have a sense of humor.

Question for gellfex: Would you get permits and inspections to do this work yourself, if you could legally do so???

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Gellfex]

Good to see you still have a sense of humor.

Question for gellfex: Would you get permits and inspections to do this work yourself, if you could legally do so???

Absolutely. Permit cost isn't the issue. As I've said, I have no interest in doing anything sub-code.

 

[MTcummins]

I have to agree with gellfex, that these pissing matches aren't really worth it. I have strong opinions about some of these things, but arguing on a forum rarely accomplishes anything useful...

Also, I agree that you're well meaning Tom. I think you are either a little nieve about reality, or your area is WAY more straight lined that mine, but either way, I can see that you are just trying to advocate doing what is right. I appreciate that. I'm not generally about skirting the law for convenience or cost or whatever, but I can tell you that often going through the "proper" process around here doesn't give you any better work, it just causes unnecessary headaches and problems. Especially on small projects. Sometimes it simply isn't worth it.

Also, as kind of hinted at towards the end of this thread, if the system and inspectors are so good, why can't people pull permits and get inspections to do work on their investment properties, or on a multi-family that they live in? If the inspectors are the end all authority on things being done correctly, and a non-licensed person can do the work properly (possibly with help from people on here, or however they get it done), and pass the inspections, why not allow this? The current system encourages people to do things outside the system, b/c it is a royal pain sometimes, because it is far too expensive sometimes, etc. In many cases, if the options are to do it "correctly" with a licensed tradesman and permits and all, and to not do it at all (the 2 legal options), the work just won't get done. Around here, anyone who cares enough to try to figure out the right way to do something, will probably do it better than the existing work. Almost everything I rip out here is totally wrong, sometimes extremely dangerous. But you know, better to leave it alone than to go against the system and fix it properly.

Maybe we should be fighting for system reform, rather than fighting with each other on here about whether or not to blindly follow the current system, which at least around me, is very corrupt. That said, I'm done arguing here about this.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

What I am trying to say is that the system is the system and no system is perfect and any system is open to abuse. But since I and my brethren tradesmen must navigate the system I see no reason why it should not apply to all. As for why commercial property can only be worked on by licensed trades, you would have to ask your state boards or legislature, but I'll be willing to bet that it is a liability issue and lawyers have something to do with it.

 

[Gellfex]

What I am trying to say is that the system is the system and no system is perfect and any system is open to abuse. But since I and my brethren tradesmen must navigate the system I see no reason why it should not apply to all. As for why commercial property can only be worked on by licensed trades, you would have to ask your state boards or legislature, but I'll be willing to bet that it is a liability issue and lawyers have something to do with it.

Tom, putting aside if we can the issue of a non-pro like myself doing the work, and just speaking as a customer, what do you make of the fact that most of the tradesmen here do their best to avoid pulling permits if they can, doing so only if the owner insists? I'm not making this up. Just one example: I wanted new electric risers and panels, and the electrician was going to do it without permits till I told him it was part of other permitted work being done. He wasn't a hack, he was very skilled and did a great job, he just didn't want to get a permit. I've had contractors from out of town tell me they won't come work here if a permit is required, that the Code Office here is such a PITA to deal with. And that's if they'll return a call. During the boom I needed a new heating system for a unit and called 3 plumbers without a single callback. Maybe I've drunk too much of their koolaid and need to pull back, but that's the culture here, a cat and mouse game between the code office and the contractors. It sounds like it's different where you are, but certainly not in Toronto where Holmes practices.

MT: I think our outlook differs from Tom's in that we both of us live in corrupt and decayed old eastern cities, where things went to hell for decades. You were lucky if anything was maintained, never mind renovated. In the 70's you could buy a whole block of my neighborhood for what people now spend on a kitchen reno in a fancy hood. So no one in their right mind would spend the tens of thousands it would take to reno an apartment with permits, it was more than the property was worth. They did what they could, sometimes with more skill than others. The last time my building got real work before I bought it was 60 years ago. I'd love to gut reno, but the rents don't justify it, I'd have to condo and sell the units to ever recover the cost.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Strictly from a liability issue, not pulling permits is like playing Russian roulette. A licensed tradesman that avoids permitting is leaving himself open to having his entire business and even his personal property pulled out from beneath him should an issue resulting in personal injury or property damage occur. The permit and inspection process not only protects the end user, it protects the tradesman as well because there is a written record that certifies the work was done properly and to code. I would never even consider working without the process in place these days. Lawyers will chew you up. As for decayed old eastern cities, I did my apprenticeship in Massachusetts at a time when corruption was the norm of the day.

 

[Gellfex]

Strictly from a liability issue, not pulling permits is like playing Russian roulette. A licensed tradesman that avoids permitting is leaving himself open to having his entire business and even his personal property pulled out from beneath him should an issue resulting in personal injury or property damage occur. The permit and inspection process not only protects the end user, it protects the tradesman as well because there is a written record that certifies the work was done properly and to code. I would never even consider working without the process in place these days. Lawyers will chew you up. As for decayed old eastern cities, I did my apprenticeship in Massachusetts at a time when corruption was the norm of the day.

Of course what you say makes perfect sense in our society run by, and for, lawyers. What's interesting is it doesn't seem to go nuclear when a contractor here gets caught. From all the stories I've heard from friends, and contractors who have worked for me, they just have to pull the permits and make it right. It seems part of the kabuki dance. maybe it's because the inspectors come from the same trades tribe. I don't know. When you frame it from the liability standpoint it DOES seem odd they're so fearless. Lawyers sure put the fear in me! It would suck to lose one's home and have the family on the streets from a moment of poor judgement that seemed run of the mill.