Vent question, no room to do it right, lesser of 2 evils?

[Hammerlane]

I can't speak for anyone else here but I am not going to give any sort of advice to someone that allows them to make an end run around the law. The plumbing codes are there to protect the health and safety of the public, not just the individual homeowner.

Sure is a lot of advice being given.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Hey Mr Sawyer: yesterday you posted in part what I quoted above. But since then you have commented three times. May you abide by your comments of 24 hours ago?

What? Sometimes I feel like I am in an old episode of the Twilight Zone. Have I given advice that allows him to make an end run around the code?

I know, I should let it go because after all, nothing I say is going to change his mind. He is determined to break the law and as usual money trumps the law and even common sense. The part you all seem to be missing here is that this is not his own private residence, it is commercial rental property. The people that rent from him are trusting that their home is safe. Homeowner are allowed to work on their own residences, not their rental units. That's a law that protects the renters. regardless though, EVERYBODY should follow the law. If the law says permit and inspect then you permit and inspect. There may well be a whole lot of folks that post here without ever intending to permit and inspect but most are not going to admit that are they? If you are questioning the whole DIY thing I suggest you do a search of my activities here and then get back to me.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I would never live in a place where I couldn't legally work on my own house! If feel sorry for those of you who do. If all licensed professionals were equally competent, honest, and not totally closed minded, it wouldn't matter so much. It's not always (just) about saving money, but that it's often easier to do it right the first time yourself. (no disrespect to anyone on this forum intended, BTW)

The other day, I had a contractor install refrigerant lines in preparation for central AC. When I asked him to run nitrogen through the lines while brazing, he went on a long rampage. If he'd said something like: OK, that wasn't in the quote, but I'll do it for another $20 or $50, then I would have been much happier... I'll have him install the condenser unit when I'm ready (EPA card required) and he'll be stuck replacing it if it fails due to crap in the lines...oh well.

Permits are a pain sometimes, but it sure is nice to have another set of eyes to look at things.

The only problem I have with inspectors is that they leave when I ask too many questions!

Great discussion.

He can work on his own house, this ain't his residence.

 

[Bluebinky]

He can work on his own house, this ain't his residence.

I agree with that. If you're going to own a bunch of properties, then get licensed if you want to do your own major work...and don't forget the permits.

 

[Gellfex]

I agree with that. If you're going to own a bunch of properties, then get licensed if you want to do your own major work...and don't forget the permits.

FWIW, I did hold a general license for a while, but then the laws were changed here, and a state rather than local license was required, with a much larger bond, and I stopped renewing as I did not have enough work to do to justify it. You can't get a casual license for plumbing and electric, you need to do the whole apprentice and journeyman route, unless of course you have a contractor family in which case you're put on the books at 11 and with the family providing the test answers hold your master before you can drink. Yes, I actually know someone whose family did this for him, just in case he wanted to go into the biz. He didn't.

You guys do know that many commercial properties employ "handymen" who regularly step over the line. Even replacing a toilet breaks the trap seal, which I've been told is a line where a permit is needed. Replacing a wall receptacle or light fixture technically needs to be done by a licensed electrician, but is regularly done by maintenance people. The real world just isn't black and white.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

FWIW, I did hold a general license for a while, but then the laws were changed here, and a state rather than local license was required, with a much larger bond, and I stopped renewing as I did not have enough work to do to justify it. You can't get a casual license for plumbing and electric, you need to do the whole apprentice and journeyman route, unless of course you have a contractor family in which case you're put on the books at 11 and with the family providing the test answers hold your master before you can drink. Yes, I actually know someone whose family did this for him, just in case he wanted to go into the biz. He didn't.

That last sentence is total load of crap and you know it. I've been in this business for almost 40 years and I been on both sides of the fence, as a plumbing contractor and a plumbing board member and an inspector. What you are fantasizing about never happens.

You guys do know that many commercial properties employ "handymen" who regularly step over the line. Even replacing a toilet breaks the trap seal, which I've been told is a line where a permit is needed. Replacing a wall receptacle or light fixture technically needs to be done by a licensed electrician, but is regularly done by maintenance people. The real world just isn't black and white.

So because it is "regularly done" then that makes it right. Is that what you are saying? So by your logic the unlicensed and general public should be making the laws and regulations that govern sanitary plumbing rather that leave it to trained professional plumbers. Perhaps you should do a little research on the history of plumbing and it's impact on society an then get back to us.

Look, you are the kind of guy that is going to do the wrong thing no matter what I or anyone else tells you, because you care more for your wallet than you do for doing what is right and legal so go on and hack into your plumbing and hope for the best. Again though, answer this. How will you know if you have done it right if you don't have it inspected? INTEGRITY......INTEGRITY........INTEGRITY.

 

[Bluebinky]

That sucks! Stupid politicians. Why do they feel the need to make it so difficult for those of us with ambition trying to do the right thing?

Note to self. Resist the urge to say this guy is obviously rich, so he should be forced to pay and pay and pay...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

In just about every state in the union a homeowner is allowed to do his own plumbing and electrical but...he has to apply for and get a permit and go through the inspection and approval process just like all licensed tradesmen do. Nobody is trying to rip the homeowner off or force him to do anything that everyone else is not required to do. Most folks are honest and want to have their work inspected because they understand the severity of the situation should something be wrong. There is more involved that what may appear on the surface. Remember that insurance companies and lawyers get involved when injury and or property damage occur and if the work has not been permitted or inspected the situation becomes much worse for all involved. It's all well and good to declare that "this is my property, I can do what I want" but you have to remember that most people don't stay in "their property" for more than 10 years on average and that un-inspected plumbing work that was done can cause the new owners problems.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The other day, I had a contractor install refrigerant lines in preparation for central AC. When I asked him to run nitrogen through the lines while brazing, he went on a long rampage. If he'd said something like: OK, that wasn't in the quote, but I'll do it for another $20 or $50, then I would have been much happier... I'll have him install the condenser unit when I'm ready (EPA card required) and he'll be stuck replacing it if it fails due to crap in the lines...oh well.

You can't run nitrogen while you are brazing because the pressure blows the brazing out of the joint, however he should have purged with nitrogen after the brazing was done.

 

[Hammerlane]

If its done properly a permit and an inspection does not make a bit of difference. The man has asked how to do it correctly many times.

 

[Bluebinky]

In just about every state in the union a homeowner is allowed to do his own plumbing and electrical but...he has to apply for and get a permit and go through the inspection and approval process just like all licensed tradesmen do. Nobody is trying to rip the homeowner off or force him to do anything that everyone else is not required to do. Most folks are honest and want to have their work inspected because they understand the severity of the situation should something be wrong. There is more involved that what may appear on the surface. Remember that insurance companies and lawyers get involved when injury and or property damage occur and if the work has not been permitted or inspected the situation becomes much worse for all involved. It's all well and good to declare that "this is my property, I can do what I want" but you have to remember that most people don't stay in "their property" for more than 10 years on average and that un-inspected plumbing work that was done can cause the new owners problems.

Agree 100%.

What if I want to get ambitious and buy a fixer-upper rental house. Wouldn't it be nice if I could obtain a limited certification to work on it too (let you pros set the competency bar however high you want, but keep the cost within reach) ? That way I wouldn't be tempted to not pull permits because I wouldn't have to lie on the applications.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If its done properly a permit and an inspection does not make a bit of difference. The man has asked how to do it correctly many times.

You seem to be having a problem with reading comprehension. Perhaps adult education classes might be of help. So I'll put this in big letters. Read it slowly and perhaps the light will come on for you.

WITHOUT AN INSPECTION, HOW WILL HE KNOW THAT IT IS DONE CORRECTLY ?

Ok now, got that?

 

[Hammerlane]

Cmon Tom...no need for word jabs. But I'll play along.

You must not understand logic or you may have a reading comprehension problem also.

So let me w r i t e s l o w l y.

1. IT IS DONE PROPERLY.... this is the premise(which means it is done PROPERLY)

2. Let me further explain: How it is done PROPERLY does not matter and is not relevant...maybe someone on this site assisted.

3. So a permit and an inspection does not make a difference because IT IS DONE PROPERLY.

Tom...I do not want to get into a word game with you. I imagine our time is more valuable...I've read some of your posts and you seem knowledgeable. Just explain to the man how to do it correctly.

Have a good night.

****Its hard to soar like an eagle when you're flying with turkeys****

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Who is going to inspect it to know if it is done properly? or do we just assume that he thoroughly understands the advice and is capable if following it without screwing something up? Were is the verification. I don't even trust myself which is why I get permits, and inspections. Furthermore I'd bet a weeks pay that he does not test his work or for that matter have any clue how to test his work. This is truly the dumbest conversation I have had in a long time. You seem to want to make this a plumbers VS DIY argument when it is not. It is an everybody playing on a level playing field argument. This site is owned and operated by Terry Love. An experienced, licensed plumber that pulls permits, tests his work and has it inspected. In short we play by the rules. This has gone far beyond planting a vent. This is about the blatant disregard for the rule of law.

BTW "So let me w r i t e s l o w l y." Write and slowly are two separate words. You are in the big leagues here LOL

In the land of the blind the one eyed man will be king

 

[Jadnashua]

There are few places where an unlicensed person can work on a multi-family dwelling. Single family is another thing. Then, there's MA, where you can't legally do all that much in your own home unless you have a license, regardless, permit or not.

 

[Gellfex]

Furthermore I'd bet a weeks pay that he does not test his work or for that matter have any clue how to test his work.

Tom, my god, you're correct!! I really don't have a clue how to test a vent line! Silly me, I've always thought the fact that in most circumstances the kitchen sink would probably drain just fine down a 2" with NO vent makes the failure of a vent hard to detect. I do pressure test hydronic systems and gas lines, unlike the plumbers I've hired and had to call back to fix their leaks. I once found a pinhole in a 3/4 black elbow that they probably would have missed till someone smelled gas. The plumbers and the inspectors are on the clock and have every incentive to cut corners. I don't. Your faith in the system is quaint.

 

[MTcummins]

I don't know how things work in all of your parts of the world, but around here many times getting an inspection to pass as a homeowner has almost nothing to do with doing proper work, and almost everything to do with how many Benjamins are in the envelope you drop at their feet.

Yep, sounds like a really good plan. I'll pay the city, to pay an inspector, to not inspect my work and collect a bribe in order to say that it is proper.

If that lets you sleep well at night, go for it. I'll sleep better at night knowing that the work is done right, not that a system that has very little to do with safety anymore was blindly followed.

That said, I'm currently remodeling my entire house, and have all the proper permits and am getting all the inspections. But, there are many situations in the real world that don't always fit into a nice pretty black and white box.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

My god, you guy's are right. We should scrap the whole permit, inspection, license thing and let folks do whatever they want. The entire system is rife with corruption. Plumbers cutting corners and paying off inspectors so they can make a quick buck at the expense of the unsuspecting homeowner. There's no need to stop with plumbers either. We should dump all permits and licenses. It's all a big scam to make money for the man. There is no pretty black and white box, only gray. Lots and lots of gray.

I wish to thank you gentlemen for your posts on this thread and for exposing the level of incompetence and corruption that runs rampant in the DIY world. Your contributions have been most enlightening.

Oh, still don't have an answer to my question though.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Tom, my god, you're correct!! I really don't have a clue how to test a vent line! Silly me, I've always thought the fact that in most circumstances the kitchen sink would probably drain just fine down a 2" with NO vent makes the failure of a vent hard to detect. I do pressure test hydronic systems and gas lines, unlike the plumbers I've hired and had to call back to fix their leaks. I once found a pinhole in a 3/4 black elbow that they probably would have missed till someone smelled gas. The plumbers and the inspectors are on the clock and have every incentive to cut corners. I don't. Your faith in the system is quaint.

I don't know what world you live in but in 99% of the country gas piping is tested and inspected three times. Once by the plumber, once by the mechanical inspector and finally by the gas company. Sand holes are a fact of life but I guarantee that someone down the chain would have found it before you did because leak testing is mandatory. So tell me, how are you going to test that connection to the vent? Explain the process to me. You posted here because you couldn't figure how to make a simple connection so now you expect us to believe that you know how to test this connection? Here's a hint; draining the sink tells you nothing.

mtcummings; I call shinnanagins on you. 30 years ago the whole bribe thing may have been standard operating procedure but these days inspectors value their jobs too much to get caught taking money. I'm not saying it never happens but it's pretty damn rare. What inspector in their right minds would risk loosing a municipal job with benefits and retirement for a few bucks on the side? With today's video cameras and cell phones it would be the easiest thing in the world to expose them.
I have heard your arguments for years and years and again, maybe it happens rarely but it damn sure is not common. the other thing that blows a hole in your theory is that if an inspector signs work off on a bribe and later on there is a liability issue, who's neck do you suppose is in the noose? Yep, that would be the inspectors.

Nice try though.

 

[Hammerlane]

BTW "So let me w r i t e s l o w l y." Write and slowly are two separate words. You are in the big leagues here LOL

You wrote it identical to me. The editing software must not recognize multiple spaces. HAHA.

I think we all agree that not everyone is a master of their profession. Hell...If I could hit a curve ball I'd be on my way to work at Yankee Stadium.

Now can we get back to plumbing issues and solutions.


****Its hard to soar like an eagle when you're flying with turkeys****