Sewer backup situation in condo townhouse

[Markon]

Hi, I'm in a complex of condo townhouses, sharing a sewer line with my neighbor (our lines Y together, no septic tank). Two weeks ago, her shower backed up with sewage, ruined her beautiful wood floors. Nothing backed up on my side at the time.

My neighbor called a plumber and he wouldn't snake the line because he was worried about possible oak tree roots and he didn't have a camera. So my neighbor called Roto Rooter and they were supposed to bring a camera. Of course they didn't. But he snaked the line, only pulled out an old tampon and baby wipe. The clog was at about 70 feet I think. It was kind of an ordeal because we were convinced there had to be a root problem and I had called the county to bring a camera. They didn't either. But they pulled the manhole cover and we all watched the water flowing freely after the Roto Rooter guy snaked the line. So we thought we were in the clear.

Flash forward to today and my neighbor had her shower backup again and my bathtub as well. So the same Roto Rooter guy came back and resnaked the line. He hit something much closer this time, but didn't pull anything up. So it is unclogged for now. But now we're wondering about the possibiltiy of tree roots again. So Roto Rooter is supposed to be sending someone with a camera today.

I'm just looking for any advice. It's frustrating because I'm really good about watching what goes down the drain. But both me and my neighbor did a couple loads of laundry last night, and I guess that put things over the edge. I just wonder how we can be sure that the Roto Rooter guy gets everything and we can feel safe using water again? It seems like he might just be poking a hole in the clog to get the snake through, but not really getting rid of everything that's there? Can that happen?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

PS. Sorry about the long post.

 

[Markon]

Just an update on my situation here. Roto Rooter came out with a camera. They had to get a guy to drive out from Orlando, about an hour+.

We watched his screen as the camera went down. He came to a dip in the pipe where waste was pooling. He said the dip is not part of the design, it either sagged over time, or a tree root pushed it down. Either way, it looks like that is the problem, as long as he's being honest with us.

We're trying to figure out now if this is the responsibility of the owners, the association, or the county, since the problem is away from the building. Estimate from Roto Rooter was $6500.

I guess there's one important lesson to be learned so far. When you replace a toilet, it's critical to do a perfect job caulking it at the base. It turns out that is where my neighbors sewage came from. The guy that installed her toilet didn't caulk it right. Oh well. I'll post back what ends up happening.

 

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[Plumber69]

Line should of been camera'd after the second plug. Caulking all around the toilet is usually not a good idea

 

[Jadnashua]

A proper seal of the toilet to the flange is usually enough to prevent waste from escaping. Caulking around (most of) the toilet is done to prevent crud from getting underneath where it is difficult to impossible to clean up...not to keep stuff from coming out. Most places dictate that the seal NOT be 100%, and want the rear left open as opposed to the waste seal (often a wax ring) which should prevent waste from exiting the sewer line underneath the toilet.

You'd have to read your condo by-laws, but the one I am in, things like the sewer lines outside of the unit are considered common property, and the association pays to fix it. Keep in mind that the association includes you, but it should be a shared expense, not tied to an individual owner. In most places, the public utility doesn't take responsibility until the line attaches to their piping, so anything on your property would be your (the association's) responsibility. You have to read the fine print. This is where condo homeowner's insurance would cover cleanup of your interior, but when caused by a common area failure, you might have grounds for the association to help pay. It all comes down to how the by-laws are written, which is how liability is determined. The by-laws do vary from place to place. Time to dig them out and read them.

 

[Markon]

Line should of been camera'd after the second plug. Caulking all around the toilet is usually not a good idea

Yeah that's my bad. I assumed it had to be caulk that sealed it. I'm just thankful the guy that replaced the toilet here did it right. Cause that could have been me with sewage flooding the apartment.

It's funny, these cameras are like aliens. I would have never believed they existed until I finally saw one today. Everybody that's supposed to come with one pretends they didn't know. I guess they're real expensive, which would explain why nobody has one around here.

 

[Markon]

A proper seal of the toilet to the flange is usually enough to prevent waste from escaping. Caulking around (most of) the toilet is done to prevent crud from getting underneath where it is difficult to impossible to clean up...not to keep stuff from coming out. Most places dictate that the seal NOT be 100%, and want the rear left open as opposed to the waste seal (often a wax ring) which should prevent waste from exiting the sewer line underneath the toilet.

You'd have to read your condo by-laws, but the one I am in, things like the sewer lines outside of the unit are considered common property, and the association pays to fix it. Keep in mind that the association includes you, but it should be a shared expense, not tied to an individual owner. In most places, the public utility doesn't take responsibility until the line attaches to their piping, so anything on your property would be your (the association's) responsibility. You have to read the fine print. This is where condo homeowner's insurance would cover cleanup of your interior, but when caused by a common area failure, you might have grounds for the association to help pay. It all comes down to how the by-laws are written, which is how liability is determined. The by-laws do vary from place to place. Time to dig them out and read them.

Thanks for the tips jadnashua. I appreciate it. The good news for me is that I rent here and I'm basically turning it over to my landlord's property manager now that we know it's real damage, not just "maintenance".

The county did come out here today and said basically what you said about them only being responsible if the damage is in their main lines. This line is inbetween the condo and their line.

The condo HOA is saying they don't cover any plumbing outside the building, so it's up to my landlord's property manager and neighbor to work it out. Roto Rooter said $6500, so they're going to want to use their regular plumber instead. In the meantime, I'm going to check the bylaws myself. I feel bad for my neighbor. If there was any justice, this dump I rent here would have gotten flooded instead of her place. She has to rip up all the wood flooring in the entire unit - all because her contractor didn't seal the toilet properly.

 

[Jadnashua]

Florida has some of the strongest condo rules in the country. Most of those (and I haven't dealt with many personally) divide property between limited private property and common property. That definition, as described (or should be) in the by-laws, defines who is responsible for what. In my condo, that would be common property, and therefore, covered by the group, not an individual(s) that may be individually affected. Other than getting it fixed, which is a plumbing issue, who is responsible to pay for it is a legal issue that can't be resolved in a forum like this.

 

[Markon]

Florida has some of the strongest condo rules in the country. Most of those (and I haven't dealt with many personally) divide property between limited private property and common property. That definition, as described (or should be) in the by-laws, defines who is responsible for what. In my condo, that would be common property, and therefore, covered by the group, not an individual(s) that may be individually affected. Other than getting it fixed, which is a plumbing issue, who is responsible to pay for it is a legal issue that can't be resolved in a forum like this.

Thank Jim. Yeah this could get fun.

 

[Markon]

This is getting interesting. The responsibility for the sewer lines is on the condo owners here and the owner of my unit doesn't want to pony up for their half of the repairs.

I don't want to make this about the legal side of this. My question is what would be the best way to come up with evidence that this bend in the pipe is a problem? If someone else comes out with a camera, the waste sitting in the bend will probably be gone by now. (We've only been using water, no solid waste.) Can they detect a bend in a clear pipe and report on how bad the bend is - or report on whether or not the line is usable? Also, what kind of reports can be provided as far as video files or written reports? My neighbor is having a hard to getting the video file from Roto Rooter.

Thanks!
markon

 

[Reach4]

Also, what kind of reports can be provided as far as video files or written reports? My neighbor is having a hard to getting the video file from Roto Rooter.

Maybe your neighbor could ask the county to suggest that it would be nice if they provided the file. I don't know if the payer has a legal right to that file, but Roto Rooter may want to stay in the good graces of the county. It sounds as if they view the file as proprietary for them to have the inside edge on selling the repair job.

 

[Markon]

After some more convincing, I finally did get a call from property manager, saying the owner agreed to send out a plumber next week with a camera.

It's funny, they want my neighbor and I to clam up and not say a word about what is wrong, and see if the plumber finds the same problem. Not a problem!

Another thing I think I learned today. The county came by and camera'd their lines to show they are not at fault. I told the guy about our problem with the line sagging and solid waste getting stuck in the sag. He said that is more common in the winter because the oils tend to harden up. At first, I thought he was talking about cooking grease. But then he said the oil comes from people. I didn't ask him to clarify, but now I'm guessing he was talking about feces. It's probably oily because it's naturally lubricated to come out easier. So it would make sense if it hardened up more in the cold. Is that really a thing?

 

[Reach4]

I would think he would be talking about fats down the garbage disposal. The "oil from people" comment is not putting him into high esteem.

Make sure your neighbor is not flushing "flushable" wipes or other non-body non-TP items.

 

[Markon]

The owner of my unit finally got someone out here with a camera. It turns out that there is a root pushing the pipe down from above in a certain spot. The root is from some hedges right in front of the unit, in some soft dirt. I could actually reach down and touch the pipe if I wanted, so the repair shouldn't be too bad. I think the difficult part will be the fun politics over who pays for it. I do have a question though for my neighbor who has to replace her floors and reinstall toilet.

She had wood laminate floors in the bathroom, and that is where her damage happened, at the toilet base. I thought I heard a long time ago that wood or wood laminate floors are problematic with sealing toilets properly. I searched a bit and couldn't verify that. So I want to make sure she will be okay going with wood laminate floors, as long as the work is done properly. I think part of that means installing the floor first, then the toilet? Is that correct? I'm also wondering if there is any way to test the seal once the toilet is installed?

Thanks!
markon