No water this morning. Pump control box giving off electric tingle and pops breaker. Please help.

[Clydesdale6]

Hello All,
I hit the reset switch on the pump box. When I then turn the pump back on, it immediately pops and then I saw and heard a spark come from the wiring going into the electrical conduit next to the box.

I did get a new control box 2 years ago and was told at that time that my pump was weakened due to lightning. The pump was drawing more amps than it should. But, they at least got me water by putting in a new box. You could see the burn marks at that time on the original controller. The pump is a 1.5hp pump.

I have an irrigation system and the water stopped during watering at some time during the early morning hours. What can I do to help diagnose this? Thank you.

 

[LLigetfa]

You managed to get another two years out of the pump but you cannot stretch that out any further. Time for new pump and control box.
Getting a tingle on the box means there is a short to ground above ground or below that is putting current on the protection ground.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

I have an irrigation system and the water stopped during watering at some time during the early morning hours. What can I do to help diagnose this?

What can you do? Turn off the breaker, and isolate wires to the pump, and take resistance readings?

 

[Bannerman]

I saw and heard a spark come from the wiring going into the electrical conduit next to the box.

Before jumping to conclusions, with the power turned off, inspect that wiring to look for the source of the spark. The cause could be as simple as vibration causing the wire insulation becoming worn through which then shorted the conductor against the grounded panel case or conduit connector.

 

[Boycedrilling]

He’s already used the “two digit” resistance meter.

 

[Boycedrilling]

At this point you should plan on replacing everything electrical from the control box to the motor. You may even have to replace from the disconnecting breaker or fuse to the control box.

if you feel competent, do it yourself, otherwise call a professional

 

[Boycedrilling]

Yes it’s possible he has a shorted wire that has rubbed thru the insulation. If that is true in one spot in the wire, it’s possible that the entire run of wire needs replaced.

 

[Clydesdale6]

Thanks Everyone,
Although I do a lot of DIY things, I am not going to be doing this job. I like the "two digit resistance meter"
I just had the pump guy leave and there is a dead short on the red wire outside at the pump head. The yellow had some issue as well, black seemed fine. The current pump is a 1.5hp with 3 wire.

The pump has been diagnosed as dead. So..... I need a new pump, but what to get. I have an irrigation system, which seemed to be working fine. The well is a depth of 345ft. The tech dropped a penny into the well and based on the time it took to reach bottom, estimates the water level to be at about 200-240ft.
They suggest Flint and Walling because of made in the USA and that Goulds does have some cheaper Chinese components. I asked about upgrading to a 2hp pump. That would require upgraded 8 gauge wire. Either way, the wiring gets replaced with 10 or 8 gauge depending on 1.5 or 2hp. These would be constant pressure pumps. I did get an estimate for a variable speed pump 2 years ago and this company advised against it. They felt the controls are more sensitive to lightning hits.

I would have a whole house filter installed at the same time. I will go to the county on Monday to get the well yield. Any advice on pump brand or size? Any other suggestions to help me get the right products and installation. The techs were polite, professional and seemed knowledgeable. Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

The tech dropped a penny into the well and based on the time it took to reach bottom, estimates the water level to be at about 200-240ft.

1. He could use an ice cube, but a penny is safe enough. At least it was not a lead weight. Many pump people have ultrasonic sounders.
2. That time to hit relates to how far to water-- not how far to the bottom of the well.

My sense is also that he is pretty knowledgeable. I am not a pro.

Well yield sometimes decreases with time.

How do you prevent cycling while irrigating while allowing water for house use during irrigating?

How much pressure does irrigation call for? Driving impact sprinklers takes more pressure than some other forms of irrigation.

For filtering, filtering for what? Sediment? Iron? Manganese? How much sediment do you get?

For a cartridge filter, it is best to have a 3-valve bypass, but you could also just be sure to keep extra o-rings. Sometimes you cannot re-use the o-ring. Lightly lube the o-ring with Molykote 111 or other silicone grease approved for potable water.

 

[Clydesdale6]

The irrigation system starts in the early hours of morning and ends right as I get up. I have run it a few times during the day and have not seen an issue.

I believe the pressure is usually about 55 pounds.

I use hunter PGP rotors for sprinklers.

As far as the filter goes, the water is said to have iron in it and it has created an orange film in our Kinetico water treatment system.

I like the idea of the bypass for the filter. I assume that will allow me to have water if the filter has an issue?

 

[Reach4]

It is better to not have the pump cycle during the long irrigation. A CSV or selecting the right nozzles to match your pump can do that. With your new pump, you may select different nozzles.

Iron Out can be used to clean out stuff with rusty film. That said, is your Kinetico system just a softener or is there an iron filter before the softener. Iron Out or citric acid or other system using phosphoric acid can be added to the brine tank to make some improvements.

Yes. Bypass lets you have water if there is a problem with the cartridge filter. Otherwise, even an o-ring that you cannot get back in when changing cartridges could put your water system out of action. I have a partial bypass. I have ball valves on each side of the filters, and a pair of spigots that I can connect around the valves using a potable-water-safe hose. I also keep spare o-rings.

Because my cartridge filters are after my backwashing iron+sulfur filter, they don't have much to do, so last well over a year. I ordered those before decided to get the backwashing filter. I have 3 Pentair (genuine) Big Blue housings that take 4.5x20 cartridges. Overkill. I keep one housing empty. One total would have been plenty. The housings are heavy if you have to reach across something to pull the housing off with outstretched arms; they are full of water at that point.

I am not sure what I would get at this point if I were starting fresh. One with a built-in bypass sounds good, but I think the ones I looked at seemed to have some deficiencies.

Note that you can put a boiler drain valve after your filter. You can attach a garden hose thread pressure gauge to that. Pressure drop across a filter during flow is a good way to tell if the cartridge needs changing.

 

[Boycedrilling]

Two digit resistance meter

yeah I’ve actually watched an old time electrician lick two fingers And then touch bare conductors to see if they were live.

When you mention irrigation in addition to household water use, I’m going to automatically recommend a cycle stop valve. Much less expensive than a “constant pressure” or VFD system.

 

[Reach4]

Here are the 10 gpm pump characteristics extracted from page 5 of https://www.flintandwalling.com/content/literature/sales/FW1674-FW-4-in-Sub-Catalog-DWSM-BStd.pdf If you went to a 2 hp pump would that be a 10 gpm pump also?

 

[Clydesdale6]

I believe the 2hp was going to be a 15gpm.

 

[Clydesdale6]

All 3 well guys that I spoke with today do not like the cycle stop valves. One said they often leak and can cause excessive back pressure. Right now I have two well companies who would do the conventional system that I have now and 2 that want to go to VFD. Ugh! More research tomorrow. Thanks for everyone's advice.

 

[Boycedrilling]

Have the pump guys give you a price for a 1 1/2 hp control box versus a vfd. The vfd will cost another $1,200 or more than the regular control box. Ask them how long the warranty is on the vfd. 3 years or less.

If they’re saying a cycle stop leaks or build too much back pressure, they’ve probably never actually installed one. They’re just going on what they’ve been told.

 

[Clydesdale6]

There is no doubt that the cost of the controller is the major reason that I am not keen on switching to VFD. I usually have 2-4 days a year without power in my area due to lightning and storms. That is what damaged the pump two years ago. My understanding is the controller for VFD is more vulnerable to lightning.
What about the back pressure claim with the CSV. I looked back at my notes from two years ago and an installer cautioned me about that then as well. In addition, I looked at the reviews for CSV and sure enough, there is one person blaiming the CSV for cracking there piping within 3 days of installation and claimed it was due to the excessive back pressure. Any thoughts on that? I appreciate your help.

 

[Reach4]

What about the back pressure claim with the CSV.

Backpressure is not hard on the pump, as long as there is enough flow around the motor to keep that cool. The pipes can see pressure. Looking at the table above, the right-hand column describes the pressure the pump can produce totally deadheaded (no flow). That puts an upper limit on what the pipe could see. The pressure will be less, because flow does not go to zero. The nominal pressure for the pipe has significant margin, but you should plan to keep within the nominal rating The max number for the 15 gpm 2hp pump is only 212 psi. I am not sure that pump is strong enough, but if the water depth never drops to 290, it may be fine. The CSV does have a little drop itself-- similar to about 15 ft of water. It would greatly simplify using a 16 gpm pump for both irrigation and a house.

So if you were using 250 psi rated polythene pipe, that would be a concern. You are probably using schedule 80 pvc pipe, and that has a much higher pressure rating.

Another thing to be concerned with is the rating for the CSV itself. That would be a concern if the well static level was often higher. With a well where the water is over 2oo ft down, the pressure drops as the water rises.

A flow inducer sleeve can enhance the cooling of the water and has some other benefits.

 

[LLigetfa]

The amount of back pressure depends on the pump model and static water level.

The well is a depth of 345ft. The tech dropped a penny into the well and based on the time it took to reach bottom, estimates the water level to be at about 200-240ft.

Unless the pump is sized way wrong, at that depth there should not be excessive back pressure.

If you worry about excessive pressure, then read some reviews of VFD controllers. A controller run wild can produce more pressure than any pressure you might see with a CSV.

 

[Clydesdale6]

With your guys help, I think I am leaning to the 1.5 10+ gpm Flint and Walling single speed pump. I think when my tank goes, I will replace it with a larger tank. That should help with cycling during irrigation and house use as well, correct? I currently have a 62 gallon tank.
I have questions about a whole house filter that I want to install at the same time. I will look at the forum titles. Should that be a different thread?