New pump and starter. Can I get rid of old contactor?

[DaneW]

Had a costly well pump replacement this week and I’m trying to bring the rest of the system kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. The pump installer did the minimum to get water flowing and based on the bill that’s good enough. Along with the new pump and starter I replumbed all the supply and tank items. The only “old stuff’ is the most shoddy electrical work I’ve ever seen.
My question is with a modern 3 wire 1.5 hp pump and capacitor start control box can I delete the old cutler hammer motor contactor box? I should be able to run the hots directly to the pressure switch and then be the switch supply to the pump correct?

 

[Reach4]

I should be able to run the hots directly to the pressure switch and then be the switch supply to the pump correct?

I think you are saying you want to wire the control box right to the breaker, and let the breaker be the power switch. A switch near the pressure switch and other well stuff is handy.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DaneW]

I think you are saying you want to wire the control box right to the breaker, and let the breaker be the power switch. A switch near the pressure switch and other well stuff is handy.

No actually there is a breaker right at the pressure switch right now, and you are right that is very handy for diagnosing issues. My setup right now is breaker at the power pole. Sub panel with breaker at well house. Motor contactor and pressure switch tied to switching on the pump starter then to the pump.
I suspect the contactor is a relic from an old pump but I want to be sure I can get rid of it.

 

[Valveman]

If the motor is 2HP or less you don't need the contactor. Just wire from the breakers to the pressure switch, pressure switch to the capacitor control box, then to motor.

 

[DaneW]

If the motor is 2HP or less you don't need the contactor. Just wire from the breakers to the pressure switch, pressure switch to the capacitor control box, then to motor.

Thank you Valveman. It’s a 1.5hp pump. Getting rid of that contactor will really clean and simplify things.

 

[DaneW]

I think I did pretty well for a first timer.
I may have not been clear. I was always using the motor Control box but wanting to get rid of the contactor. I don’t think I mentioned or included it in any photos.
Put in a new sub-panel inside the enclosure with an outlet for heat tape. New interlock for main panel to use generator. Need generator inlet plug coming soon.

last part of the project is to buy and install a pumpsaver module.
first month and the power bill for the well is down 50%. By my calculations that savings will pay for the pump replacement in 29 years, but the peace of mind knowing it’s done right and we have great pressure and flow again is almost priceless, almost.
Originally my wife hated the cover I chose but she likes the look now.

Finally might be able to have the sprinkler system I’ve always wanted.
was never practical with the old system. 3gpm for about 10 minutes would have required infinite zones and 5 minute intervals.
Plumbed in an extra 1” valve for future expansion.

 

[Valveman]

If you think the pressure is great with a big tank and a 40/60 pressure switch cycling the pump over and over, you would really like 55 PSI constant from a Cycle Stop Valve. With an irrigation system coming and all those valves to vary the flow you want to use, you need a Cycle Stop Valve to vary the flow from the pump to match the demand. The CSV would let you set up the irrigation any way you want without hurting the pump or taxing the well. Without a CSV the irrigation needs to be set up to use the max output of the pump, which will probably be more than the well can handle. Also, the amps drop so much when using a CSV that the Pumpsaver will not work. You would need a Cycle Sensor instead to protect from running the well dry as it will work with a CSV.

 

[DaneW]

Valveman I wish I found this place before I had done all this. From what I’ve learned about The CSV I wouldn’t have had to get such a big enclosure because I could have use a much smaller tank. Once I get a few bucks saved up, the new pump and all associated with it was about $5k, I’m going to look at sizing for a CSV and possible smaller tank and enclosure.

This system serves 3 houses. Would that change anything in the use of a CSV?

 

[Reach4]

I wouldn’t have had to get such a big enclosure

Is that a giant mock rock?

 

[Valveman]

Valveman I wish I found this place before I had done all this. From what I’ve learned about The CSV I wouldn’t have had to get such a big enclosure because I could have use a much smaller tank. Once I get a few bucks saved up, the new pump and all associated with it was about $5k, I’m going to look at sizing for a CSV and possible smaller tank and enclosure.

This system serves 3 houses. Would that change anything in the use of a CSV?

Really nice looking job! Also a nice looking fake rock, but dang that's a big one! With a CSV you could use as little as a 20 gallon size tank. That 80 gallon size tank you have only holds 20 gallons of water, and would also still work with a CSV. To save room and use a smaller fake rock you could put a PK1A kit at the well with a 4.5 gallon size tank. That kit and tank will fit in a 24X24X14 little box, so a much smaller fake rock would cover it and the well head. Then you could put an additional 20 or 80 gallon size tank at one of the houses, or anywhere you could find the water line. Even just adding an extra 4.5 gallon size pressure tank at the water heater for each of the three houses would work the same. With the multiple uses you will have with three houses on one well a CSV is very important. Just need to make sure your pump fits the parameters to work with a CSV? Horsepower, GPM series, and depth to water are needed to size a CSV as needed. If you don't know these things, they can be figured out with a simple bucket test.

Or, you could just remove that check valve by the tank, as it is not needed and can cause problems, and just put a CSV1A in that place. Since you have everything already set up with the big rock and looking so good, you just as well have a strong constant 55 PSI "city like" pressure while you are at it.

 

[DaneW]

The fake rock was my solution to the need to cover things and I didn’t want to build a big conventional shed like we had before. The old 4x5.5’ “outhouse” was built in 1970 and the plumbing had leaked for more years than I’ve been alive. It was so rotten and ridiculously difficult to work inside. There was nothing left of the sill plate and had started to list to the port side. When the pump man came I hacked it to bits with the sawzall to save money on labor costs. Next I went to HD to get lumber and holy Hanna a single stick 2x4 is over $7 and sheet goods over $50 so making a bigger easier to service shed wasn’t going to be cost effective. The well is so stupidly close to the house I didn’t want to make it any bigger really. The view of the back yard is no longer obstructed from the house. The fake rock is only 1” taller than the top of thank once I made the block wall it sits on. Smaller tank and smaller fake rock probably would have equalized in cost but I thought “bigger is always better”
If I had found this place earlier I would have gone with a tank half this size, and dropped in a CSV, but the big one was already in place.

The pump is 1.5 hp, 10gpm, on 1.25” pvc drop pipe at 198feet.
Bucket test fills 5 gal in 23 seconds.
Old setup was a minute 5 seconds.
Old pipe was filled so full of crud it’s a miracle anything could make it to the surface. The old valves were so full of crud light could barely pass through.

 

[Valveman]

If you had found this place earlier you could have also saved a lot of money on the pump. A 1.5HP, 10 GPM pump is made to pump from as deep as 620'. Your pump is only set at 198', and the water level maybe 20' from the surface. Pumps only lift from the water level, so even though your pump is set at 198', it is probably only lifting from 20 to 5o feet. The water level needs to be at least 100' deep and the pump needs to work above 50 PSI for that pump to have enough back pressure to keep it from up-thrusting. Might need to put in a 13-14 GPM Dole valve just to keep the pump on its curve. If you know the pressure on the gauge while you were testing the 13 GPM flow rate, I can figure the actual water level?

Best case scenario for a Cycle Stop Valve is if your water level is at 180' deep. A pump that can build 620' of head, lifting from only 180' will have 440' of head left. This would make 190 PSI of back pressure on the CSV and pipe. While that would work with a CSV1A set for 60 PSI constant to the house, it is still 5 PSI more than we recommend for the CSV1A. If your water level is higher than 180' deep, it will put another 1 PSI back pressure for every 2.31 feet the water level is higher than 180'. In other words, if the water level is worst case only 20' deep, there would be 260 PSI back pressure on the pipe and CSV, which is more than they can handle.

A 1HP, 10 GPM pump would have been a much better fit for this well, and would have worked fine with a CSV if the water level was 20' or 180'. The 1HP would also have cost much less, used less energy, and lasted longer. But it is very common for a pump man to just stick in whatever pump he has on the truck, or sometimes just because it is the most expensive choice. If your drop pipe is Sch 120 it can handle the possible 260 PSI back pressure from the CSV. We would just need two of the CSV1A valves to stair step that 260 PSI down to the 60 PSI you need. The first CSV1A would bring the pressure down from 260 PSI to the CSV set pressure of 150 PSI. The second CSV1A would see the 150 PSI and bring it down to 60 PSI as needed to use with that tank and a 45/65 pressure switch setting.

As long as you have Sch 120 pipe that can handle it, that 260 PSI back pressure would be good for the pump. That pump needs at least 86 PSI back pressure to stay out of up-thrust. If the water level is high that would require a 80/100 pressure switch setting to stay above 80 PSI all the time. You would at least need a 14 GPM Dole valve to add more back pressure if using only a 40/60 pressure switch setting as needed. Adding two of the CSV1A valves would keep the pump out of up-thrust without needing a Dole valve, would give you strong constant pressure, and keep the pump from cycling itself to death.

A pump that is way oversized and made for 620' when the water level is less than 200' is the hardest job for a CSV to do, and requires lots of figuring like above. But because the pump is way oversized, adding the CSV's would make the pump think it was at a depth that is much more suitable for that size pump.

 

[DaneW]

The pump man just asked what was down the hole and I read him the numbers on the old pump starter box. He did end up pulling the motor off one pump he had and putting it on another motor body on the truck. I wish I knew more at the get go. Could have saved on the $2,000 pump/motor it sounds like.

based on the staining he figured the pump was in about 30 feet of water. Then he did the “splash test” and measure it to be just about 35 feet the pump was submerged.

The drop pipe is sch120 PVC.

Learning so much. I wish I had got into this as a career. I’d rather be outside than stuck behind a desk.

 

[Valveman]

The numbers on the motor control box are for the motor only. You could have a 5, 7, 10, 15, 19, 20, 22, or 25 GPM pump on that 1.5HP motor. And the 15 to 25 GPM pump would have been much better suited for that depth. They would have pumped more water per KW and had fewer impellers, so cost less. Also they would not put so much back pressure before a CSV. Without a CSV the pump is just running between 40 and 60, so you never know you have the wrong pump in the well.

 

[Bannerman]

Valveman, it sounds as though your recommendation with the current pump is to use 2 - CSV1A valves in series, and possibly increase the pressure switch setting to 55/75 psi which would then deliver a constant 65 psi once the pump becomes activated.

If the current 80-gallon tank was to be replaced with a 20-gallon version, less water would then need to be used before the pump will operate to provide that consistent 65 psi.

 

[Valveman]

Valveman, it sounds as though your recommendation with the current pump is to use 2 - CSV1A valves in series, and possibly increase the pressure switch setting to 55/75 psi which would then deliver a constant 65 psi once the pump becomes activated.

If the current 80-gallon tank was to be replaced with a 20-gallon version, less water would then need to be used before the pump will operate to provide that consistent 65 psi.

Yes except with the large tank you would want the CSV set at 70 PSI when using a 55/75 pressure switch setting to keep from taking to long to fill the large tank.

 

[Bannerman]

VM, I consider a 70 psi CSV setting an additional bonus, especially when supplying multiple homes.

Since the tank is so large, perhaps the pressure switch differential could be reduced? Because the CSV will be controlling the pump's minimum run time, the 20 psi delta is not really needed. If the delta was reduced to only 12 or 15 psi, then the pump could cut-in at 60 or 63 psi which would reduce the amount of water consumed before the pump is activated and the constant 70 psi is achieved.

 

[Valveman]

Yes with a constant 70 PSI they should not even need soap in the shower.

The problem with reducing the Delta from 20 to 10 PSI is finding a pressure switch that will do that. It is also basically cutting your pressure tank drawdown in half. But it works. I have an electronic pressure switch with a Delta of 10 PSI, (EPS15/99) but normal mechanical switches that will do that are hard to find and/or expensive.

With a small tank you don't notice a 20 PSI Delta because it happens so fast. With multiple houses a 20 gallon size tank is all that is needed when using a CSV. The CSV cannot deliver constant pressure until the tank is empty, and with a big tank you just have to wait for it.