Can you Diagnose a pump going bad?

[Mike Mass]

New to forum. This is my first post. I have searched and searched the internet for info and I often get directed to this site. I have found very helpful information after reading threads with very similar issues. But I still don't full understand what exactly I should look for. I have exhausted all my searches on this site, I created a log-in and have read the rules of the forum. So with out further ado, here's my issue:

THE PROBLEM:
Pump kicks on at 40 psi (as it should), runs for about 20 secs and clicks off at 45psi. After about 2 - 2.5 mins with NO water running, it kicks on again for about another 15 secs and climbs to 50psi. Another 2 mins of doing nothing it clicks on again and climbs to 55psi. And yet again after a few mins, clicks on and finally achieves 60 psi. At which point it will hold that until I use water and the pressure drops back down to 40 at which point this 4 step "cycle" reoccurs.

THE EQUIPMENT DETAILS:
Pump (according to an old sticker on my original Bladder tank): - 1HP - 230V - 12GPM - 9.80 Amps (I would guess this to be about 15 years old)
Bladder Tank: Well-X-Trol Model # WX-255 (Brand New)
Pressure switch: a 40/60 Square D (Brand new - Just replaced)
No Control Box outside (Just a capped off PVC pipe where the well is)

SOME BACKGROUND:
House built in 1998 - Pump bit the dust for whatever reason in 2005 and was replaced at that time. Now here's an unknown: The pump specs I supplied above I believe is the sticker of the original pump. I am making an assumption that what is in the ground now (since 2005) was the exact same spec'd pump. But unfortunately I can't find any paperwork from when I had that installed.

The Bladder tank, pressure switch, pressure gauge, relief valve, check valve, ball valve, gate valve is all BRAND NEW as of about 1-1/2 months ago (Installed 1/19/2020). Basically I replaced EVERYTHING well related on the basement side for reasons I will gladly get into if you feel it's necessary to explain. But bottom line, at the time of install everything was working fine as far as the "click on and 40 - off at 60" over a nice slow, steady and continuous cycle. I also checked that tank was set at exactly 38psi when empty before installing.

My gut is telling me that the pump might be on it's last legs and is shutting off due to some thermal protection or something of the like. I know pool pumps have such a feature. Do underground well pumps have this too?

I have also read in this forum you guys talking about testing: Ground to hot continuity, Amp readings and some other things. But when I read about you guys discussing these things, it appears most people already know how to perform these tests. If I should be doing these tests I will need a little more Virtual "Hand Holding" - i.e. "Set your Multi Meter to X, touch red lead to Y, touch black lead to Z" etc.

Anyway. Sorry for such a long first post. But trying to provide as much detail as I can.

<Some images attached>

 

[WorthFlorida]

Is the pressure switch reacting to the shut off, or it just everything stops and the pressure switch is closed? Have you tried just dumping the water with a garden hose before the pressure tank? It's just to let the pump run with less back pressure and see if it continues to run or just stops. Have you used a clamp meter to get a read on the current for both start up and run current?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mike Mass]

Is the pressure switch reacting to the shut off, or it just everything stops and the pressure switch is closed?

I just got a real close look at this and ran another test.....
1. Instruct wife to open a faucet upstairs..... When the pressure hits 40 on the down turn the contacts on the switch snap closed and the pump kicks on.
2. Instruct wife to immediate shut faucet.
3. As the pressure climbs and approaches 45-47ish, the pump shuts down, but the contacts on the switch stay closed.
4. In exactly 1 min 50 secs later the pump starts running again while the contacts remain closed. This time makes it to about 52psi before shutting down (contacts still closed)
5. Another 1:50 goes by and pump turns on again, pressure climbs to 58 and pump shuts off. (contacts STILL closed)
6. Another 1:50 goes by. Pump on, pressure climbs to 61psi... pump shuts off AND the contacts on switch finally open.

Have you tried just dumping the water with a garden hose before the pressure tank? It's just to let the pump run with less back pressure and see if it continues to run or just stops.

Not yet. This will involve a little set up on my part as I have a finished basement and the sump pump is on the other end of the basement. I have to get a clean hose to run from the Well Room to the Sump Pump room. Will report back when I have time to check this.

That said I did perform the same test as above but rather than instruct wife to shut kitchen faucet I turned off the main shut off lever to the house when the initial pump kicked on at 40psi. The only difference was that I achieved my 61psi after just 3 on off cycles rather than the 4 you see above. In other words the pressure was able to climb a little more each time before the pump shut off. Was like 40-49, the 49-56, and finally 56-61 before finally opening the pressure switch. Hope that makes sense.

Have you used a clamp meter to get a read on the current for both start up and run current?

I don't have a clamp style tester. I have a few multi meters. Can I use that? If I must I'll buy a clamp one on Amazon and will have it within a day or two to report back.

 

[Reach4]

The odds of the problem not being the pump are low.

You can still order the meter. They are useful.

Get a photo of the two labels on the pump. They have date codes -- one for the motor and one for the pump part.... not that that will mater, but we are curious. Note the water line mark. That will identify the static water level.

What do you know about the well? Diameter, depth to pump, depth to water. Those might be useful in helping a better pump choice.

Also, if you have a big enough casing, you can use a flow inducer sleeve, which can increase pump life.

Ask your neighbors for pump service recommendations.

 

[Mike Mass]

Reach4 - Thanks for the response and also for the PM you sent me about installers.

So I got a clamp meter from a friend of mine. Will do some amp tests tonight. Not sure exactly what I am looking for or what it will tell me. But I'll report back the results.

As far as a photo of the label on the pump. Stay tuned because I have no idea when I will be pulling this thing up from the well. But when that time comes I will take photos.

Now if you can believe it, I was able to dig out some paper work from 1998 when the well was installed. I'm really annoyed with myself that I don't have any documentation from when the "new" pump was installed in 2005. But lets for now go on the assumption that it was an exact replacement of the original. I am attaching 2 documents here. One is a .pdf showing a lot of those specs you asked about. The other is a photo of the invoice of the original install which mentions the pump. Take a look and see if you have anything else to add after obtaining that info.

Thanks,

 

[Reach4]

4 inch PVC casing. So no flow inducer sleeve needed with a 4 inch pump.

Look at this table, and see what you think fits your needs. 1/2 hp 10 gpm seems suitable to me. A 1 HP pump seems oversized for a house. 2-wire pumps are often used for 1/2 HP.

Note that what matters is the depth to water.

 

[Mike Mass]

Appreciate all of this. Maybe my 1 HP is overkill but for 20 years I've been very satisfied with the performance. I do have a lawn irrigation system. So in the summer I do put out a lot of volume.

But back to the original purpose of this thread. Is there any other testing that you feel I need to do or is the pump indeed shot and will completely die on me any day?

 

[Valveman]

Your pump is on its last leg. It is tripping the automatic overload, which takes a minute or two to reset itself and the pump just magically comes back on. Noting wrong with a 20 GPM pump if you sometimes need 20 GPM. But when using less than 20 GPM the pump is cycling on and off repeatedly, which is what has caused your pump to be worn out. Not much you can do about cycling when using water in the house, and the house doesn't use much water anyway. But when irrigating either use 20 GPM all the time, or get a Cycle Stop Valve to keep the pump from cycling when using less than 20 GPM.

 

[Mike Mass]

Valveman - Really happy you responded as your name continually pops up in my searches. As far as CSV's. I actually looked into this last month when I needed to replace my pressure tank. My old tank was shot and water logged (prob why my pump dying now). It was a 50 gal.

I was torn between getting a larger tank or going with a CSV and a smaller tank. I even talked to a rep at CSV. I like the concept a lot and it makes perfect sense to me. Unfortunately I was hesitant because it's not that common, not the "industry norm" (if there is such a thing). And I talked to some local pros by me (plumbers, installers, supply house guys, etc). No one was familiar enough with the product.

So in the end I went with a brand new 81 Gall tank. (The name brand you see in my pics above). I figured my pump would be happier with the new 81Gal after being subject to a 50Gal for the past 15 years. (Of which who knows how long I was short cycling).

I still like the idea of a CSV - But can it be used now that I upgraded to such a large tank?

 

[Valveman]

Sure you can use a CSV with any size tank. You just wasted your vacation money on that big tank you didn't need. A 50 gallon tank only holds 15 gallons and an 80 gallon tank only holds about 20 gallons of water. Without a CSV you pump cycles on/off for every 20 gallon used. With a CSV the pump never cycles, runs continuously, which is what pumps like to do, as long as you are using more than 1 GPM.

Cycling on and off is what caused your tank bladder to go bad. A few years of "regular: cycling add to the rapid cycling caused by the failed tank bladder is what caused all your problems. Stop the cycling and stop the problem.

 

[Mike Mass]

Yup. I'm aware that cycling is the death of these pumps. My worst cycling on and off is when I am running my sprinklers in the summer. I have adjusted most of my zones and nozzles so that I am putting out so much water that the bladder never has a chance to fully expand during the cycle. As a result the pump runs continuously for the entire watering zone. That's a good thing.

But here's the kicker. I irrigate different sections of my property from TWO different lines:
-One line tees off directly to the irrigation (zones that only hit grass and vegetation)
- The other first goes through my softener first and then to the irrigation (because these zones either hit my house, a walkway, or something I don't want to get iron staining on)

The "dirty" water line is a nice fat 3/4" pipe out to the irrigation. The "clean" water line is 1/2"

I can only output enough water to continuously run the pump on my "dirty" zones. I can't push that much water through the softener and then the 1/2" line no matter how many heads I have on a zone enough to keep the bladder tank from reaching 60psi. I have talked to the guy who installed my irrigation and he said this is the way it has to be.

As a result, my well pump painfully cycles A LOT when watering those zones. I am positive that is what has destroyed my pump. I am surprised it's lasted as long as it has.

 

[Reach4]

As a result, my well pump painfully cycles A LOT when watering those zones. I am positive that is what has destroyed my pump. I am surprised it's lasted as long as it has.

How about you water the zones that take 25 gpm with smaller nozzles that draw less water. Tune everything to 10 gpm, for example.

The most cycling occurs when you use 50% of what the pump produces.

I can only output enough water to continuously run the pump on my "dirty" zones. I can't push that much water through the softener and then the 1/2" line no matter how many heads I have on a zone enough to keep the bladder tank from reaching 60psi. I have talked to the guy who installed my irrigation and he said this is the way it has to be.

A CSV set to maybe 57 psi could match your setup to advantage. So with a 40/60 pressure switch controls, flow throttles to 3 gpm when the usage stops. Maybe a different CSV could be matched to your setup better.

If you have plants that die in the "clean" zone, replace them with salt-tolerant plants.

 

[Mike Mass]

I have struggled with this problem of my clean zone for 15 years. The well guy says one thing, the irrigation guy says another. And now I am confused as to what you are saying.

I never understood why I can push a ridiculous amount of water out of my dirty zones. But not so much through the clean ones.

Irrigation guy was sick of me insisting that the pump going on and off every 2 minutes is abnormal. He said live with the pump cycling or have a rust colored house and patio.

When I ask the well guy, he said: Stop watering. Accept a burnt out, weedy lawn. No joke. These were the responses.
Needless to say I haven't contacted either in over 10 years. Now I just do everything I can by myself.

But I'll be honest, you only added to the confusion above. What is so magical about 25GPM? Why would I dial it down to 10GPM? According to that pump label I attached in my first post, doesn't my pump put out 12GPM? and does that even take into account a 60 foot climb?

 

[Valveman]

You don't have to live with the cycling, stop watering, or any of that. Just put in a CSV and you can water anyway you want from 1 GPM to as much as the pump will produce without cycling the pump.

 

[LLigetfa]

I am of the opinion that iron should be removed with an iron filter, not a softener. I have a separate iron filter and I tap off for the irrigation lines after the iron filter but before the softener.

 

[Mike Mass]

valveman - I am going to look more into this CSV for sure. If/When I have to replace an expensive pump, I want to get it right this time. Proper output on my sprinklers once and for all along with proper cycling of the pump. Thanks for all the advice.

LLigetfa - That's an interesting suggestion. Is an Iron Filter another large piece of equipment (like a resin tank) or is it something I can just run in line to the existing plumbing? Because it's getting a little tight down there with all the water equipment (Water heater, Large Bladder Tank, Two large resin tanks, one smaller Calcium tank (to adjust my low pH) and an enormous brine tank.

And back to the original problem of my pump. I put a clamp meter on it yesterday - When the pump kicks on I am running anywhere from 24-28 amps while pump is running. Does that mean anything to you guys?

 

[Reach4]

And back to the original problem of my pump. I put a clamp meter on it yesterday - When the pump kicks on I am running anywhere from 24-28 amps while pump is running. Does that mean anything to you guys?

If you mean the peak in the first second, that would be below what would be expected. If that means after 2 seconds, it is way above normal, and would point to a defective pump.

 

[Mike Mass]

Here. Maybe the visuals will help:

 

[Valveman]

1HP is 9 amps. After start up peak amps, anything higher than 9 amps will trip the overload.

 

[Reach4]

Strange rumble in the audio.

Interesting ammeter reading... high current continues. Pump is bad. You have done more than enough due diligence.

Iron filter will at least need a big tank like a softener media tank.