Looking for opinions on this water treatment setup

[bricktop]

Hi all, new member here, and recently new homeowner. This place looks to be a great resource I'm sure I'll be here often as we continually get this place back in order.

To preface, the previous owners of this house lived here for 3-4 years and, from everything we gathered, did not invest in or maintain anything. The house is on a well, unsure of the depth currently.

When we inspected the house, there was a rudimentary water test, which was positive for choliform, but the UV light was out, and was for who knows how long. We made them replace it before purchase.

The softener did not appear to be drawing brine from the get-go, i'm not sure if it's working at all. I'm guessing the resin bed is pretty fouled at this point. It looks to be quite old - a Flotrol mechanical valve? Most all of the labels on the tanks are illegible. No labels indicating service info or who installed.

There also looks to be a venturi air injector before and after the pressure tank, then a settling tank, then some type of backwashing filter. Also unsure if this is functional, there looks to be some pieces missing from the controls.

We recently had a more thorough water test of the water direct from the well (save for the first-draw numbers, which are from the kitchen faucet), which is attached.

We're looking at getting this all working again. I'm mostly concerned about getting the iron and manganese levels down, the water does taste somewhat metallicy. The hardness isn't too objectionable now.

We didn't have the post-treatment water tested professionally, but we did get a Hach 5B, and it appears the water is the same hardness before and after the softener.

When drawing the water samples for professional testing, it was very brown at first. I suspect iron that oxidized from the injector had precipitated and settled in the pressure tank. The actual sample, which was taken after 7-10 minutes of running the water, was still rather turbid.

I haven't seen any evidence of iron bacteria. I suspect the iron filter or softener would have clogged by now if we did have it. Based on the choliform results, we might try shocking the well when the snow thaws.

To the point: based on the water test results and the age and state of the equipment, would it be worth it to fix up, perhaps replace the valves and media in each, or to replace it altogether? I'm not against spending the money for new equipment if it's quality and worth it in the long run. I would prefer new electronic valves, especially a metering one, if these aren't already? (I doubt it?)

Should we stick with an iron filter, or remove it and just fix up or replace the softener and count on it for iron and manganese reduction? Would that be too much of a pain to maintain?

Or, replace/service the iron filter and drop the softener altogether?

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[Reach4]

Interesting. Looks like you might have a micronizer to add air to the water as it comes in.

LLigetfa has a lot of micronizer experience.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[bricktop]

They look almost identical to the product below. Same purpose, it seems?

https://www.water-softeners-filters...MI4PLHzaic7wIVCInICh1SfgDkEAQYASABEgIj2PD_BwE

 

[Reach4]

Looks right.

I haven't seen any evidence of iron bacteria. I suspect the iron filter or softener would have clogged by now if we did have it. Based on the choliform results, we might try shocking the well when the snow thaws.

Positive coliform results are often due to inadequate sampling technique.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my sanitizing writeup.

You might consider contacting the old owner. He would probably be glad to talk to you about that system.

 

[Water Pro]

Hi all, new member here, and recently new homeowner. This place looks to be a great resource I'm sure I'll be here often as we continually get this place back in order.

To preface, the previous owners of this house lived here for 3-4 years and, from everything we gathered, did not invest in or maintain anything. The house is on a well, unsure of the depth currently.

When we inspected the house, there was a rudimentary water test, which was positive for choliform, but the UV light was out, and was for who knows how long. We made them replace it before purchase.

The softener did not appear to be drawing brine from the get-go, i'm not sure if it's working at all. I'm guessing the resin bed is pretty fouled at this point. It looks to be quite old - a Flotrol mechanical valve? Most all of the labels on the tanks are illegible. No labels indicating service info or who installed.

There also looks to be a venturi air injector before and after the pressure tank, then a settling tank, then some type of backwashing filter. Also unsure if this is functional, there looks to be some pieces missing from the controls.

We recently had a more thorough water test of the water direct from the well (save for the first-draw numbers, which are from the kitchen faucet), which is attached.

We're looking at getting this all working again. I'm mostly concerned about getting the iron and manganese levels down, the water does taste somewhat metallicy. The hardness isn't too objectionable now.

We didn't have the post-treatment water tested professionally, but we did get a Hach 5B, and it appears the water is the same hardness before and after the softener.

When drawing the water samples for professional testing, it was very brown at first. I suspect iron that oxidized from the injector had precipitated and settled in the pressure tank. The actual sample, which was taken after 7-10 minutes of running the water, was still rather turbid.

I haven't seen any evidence of iron bacteria. I suspect the iron filter or softener would have clogged by now if we did have it. Based on the coliform results, we might try shocking the well when the snow thaws.

To the point: based on the water test results and the age and state of the equipment, would it be worth it to fix up, perhaps replace the valves and media in each, or to replace it altogether? I'm not against spending the money for new equipment if it's quality and worth it in the long run. I would prefer new electronic valves, especially a metering one, if these aren't already? (I doubt it?)

Should we stick with an iron filter, or remove it and just fix up or replace the softener and count on it for iron and manganese reduction? Would that be too much of a pain to maintain?

Or, replace/service the iron filter and drop the softener altogether?

Thanks in advance for the help!

providing the coliform is coming from the well (which I suspect it is) you'll need a UV in place. it should follow any other treatment equipment. a softener may be able to handle the Fe/Mn, but it will be very inefficient. I suggest oxidation (Ozone or H202 injection) combined/followed by a CC tank, then a softener and UV. At 9 gpg hard, softened water will be a noticable improvement.

 

[Reach4]

providing the coliform is coming from the well (which I suspect it is) you'll need a UV in place.

Have you had many instances with a deep well with a pitless, and a casing that extends above ground, that good sanitizing, followed by proper sampling techniques, gave a positive coliform test?

 

[Water Pro]

Have you had many instances with a deep well with a pitless, and a casing that extends above ground, that good sanitizing, followed by proper sampling techniques, gave a positive coliform test?

yes I have. honestly, there's no rhyme or reason. If a UV already exists their is a good likelyhood the coliform is present for the long haul. the casing could be compromised below ground. The surrounding land is/was probably a feed lot or woodland most times, or the septic tank is/was compromised. IME Cl will only work for as long as it's present. Coliform bacteria is the one bacteria you don't want to take any chances with. It's hell on the liver.

 

[bricktop]

Looks right.


Positive coliform results are often due to inadequate sampling technique.
lay ba
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my sanitizing writeup.

You might consider contacting the old owner. He would probably be glad to talk to you about that system.

The test kit was from my local university, it was sealed and I followed their instructions to a T. It's possible, but given the test at inspection was also positive, and at some point someone prior to that must have also tested positive (given the UV light), I think its there. Whether or not a proper sanitizing would fix it, remains to be seen.

I think I'm probably a few owners removed from the original installers.

providing the coliform is coming from the well (which I suspect it is) you'll need a UV in place. it should follow any other treatment equipment. a softener may be able to handle the Fe/Mn, but it will be very inefficient. I suggest oxidation (Ozone or H202 injection) combined/followed by a CC tank, then a softener and UV. At 9 gpg hard, softened water will be a noticeable improvement.

UV filter is already in place, I definitely make sure the bulbs is replaced as the system indicates, and not with an imported one/knockoff. I'm considering an ozone injection filter now.

yes I have. honestly, there's no rhyme or reason. If a UV already exists their is a good likelyhood the coliform is present for the long haul. the casing could be compromised below ground. The surrounding land is/was probably a feed lot or woodland most times, or the septic tank is/was compromised. IME Cl will only work for as long as it's present. Coliform bacteria is the one bacteria you don't want to take any chances with. It's hell on the liver.

The area was at one point wooded. It is on the side of a slight hill. The septic is on the other side of the lot, but I know they've had issues from it before (according to neighbors), as the soil has a good amount of hard clay.

 

[Reach4]

The test kit was from my local university, it was sealed and I followed their instructions to a T. It's possible, but given the test at inspection was also positive, and at some point someone prior to that must have also tested positive (given the UV light), I think its there. Whether or not a proper sanitizing would fix it, remains to be seen.

I don't know if any non E.coli coliforms are pathogenic, but certainly most are not.

For any bacteria test to be meaningful, you have to follow proper sampling techniques including sterilizing the faucet. If you care about the coliform test results, care needs to be taken in sampling. There are variations on suggested sampling techniques, but they have some other things in common:
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/331-225.pdf
https://www.anra.org/divisions/water_quality/lab/pdfs/Proper_Collection_of_Drinking_Water_Samples_for_Coliform_Analysis.pdf
https://myhealth.alberta.ca/Alberta/Pages/Bacteria-Testing.aspx
https://www.digbydistrict.ca/559-water-testing-sample-taking-procedure/file.html
https://servitechlabs.com/Services/Water/WaterSamplingProcedures/tabid/128/Default.aspx
These all describe methods to avoid contaminating the sample.

 

[Water Pro]

I don't know if any non E.coli coliforms are pathogenic, but certainly most are not.

The presence of coliform may serve as an indicator of other harmful bacteria, viruses and protozoa

 

[ditttohead]

Coliform is an indicator of the presence of certain families of bacteria and should be dealt with properly. As you can see on the water test, the "first draw" shows a good amount of copper even though the pH is above 7. The CI is -.53, this is "corrosive. With the many variables possible with this water supply, I would recommend starting over. Your equipment could be salvaged if you are on a very tight budget, but your water system could definitely use a refresh.

 

[bricktop]

Coliform is an indicator of the presence of certain families of bacteria and should be dealt with properly. As you can see on the water test, the "first draw" shows a good amount of copper even though the pH is above 7. The CI is -.53, this is "corrosive. With the many variables possible with this water supply, I would recommend starting over. Your equipment could be salvaged if you are on a very tight budget, but your water system could definitely use a refresh.

Agreed. For some of these iron filters, a large amount of flow is required for backwash. Currently tested at the tank tee I'm getting 7gpm (both with the tank drawdown measurement and refill timing method, and the fill from a bucket with the tank empty and pump running method), but there is that micronizer in place before the tank, which I suspect has some restriction (at least according to some info I've found elsewhere here).

Another funny thing is I'm getting about 12 gallons of drawdown from my tank, which is too much for the Well-x-trol WX-230 WX-203. It's because the cut-in pressure is set to about 10-15 psi and cut-out pressure to 60 psi. I suspect a previous owner did this because it has the M4 version of the pumptrol with the low-pressure cut-out, and it was cutting out a lot with larger water loads. I doubt this is good for the tank baffle, so I'm going to replace the pumptrol with the regular 40-60 version and use a pump protector, and make sure the tank pressure is at 38psi while it's opened up to pull out the micronizer.

 

[Reach4]

Well-x-trol WX-230

You probably mean WX-203.

That large range is harder on the pressure tank.

 

[Bannerman]

I'm going to replace the pumptrol with the regular 40-60 version

You may wish to consider installing a Cycle Stop Valve.

Valveman is a moderator in the Pumps & Tanks Well forum and is also the developer and manufacturer of CSV devices. Using a CSV, your well pump will not cycle when more than 1 GPM is flowing, and the pressure to your faucets will be a consistent 50 psi once the pump is activated.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/

 

[bricktop]

You probably mean WX-203.

That large range is harder on the pressure tank.

Yup, my mistake.

 

[bricktop]

You may wish to consider installing a Cycle Stop Valve.

Valveman is a moderator in the Pumps & Tanks Well forum and is also the developer and manufacturer of CSV devices. Using a CSV, your well pump will not cycle when more than 1 GPM is flowing, and the pressure to your faucets will be a consistent 50 psi once the pump is activated.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/

I saw those and they are interesting. The Cycle Stop Sensor was the pump protector I got. My one concern was that I might need as much flow as I can get (for the iron+manganese filter), and that it will add a bit of restriction. Depending on how things go, if my pressure tank ends up going, I might look at that again at another time.

 

[Water Pro]

It's because the cut-in pressure is set to about 10-15 psi and cut-out pressure to 60 psi. I suspect a previous owner did this because it has the M4 version of the pumptrol with the low-pressure cut-out, and it was cutting out a lot with larger water loads.

you can adjust it. If it truly is 15/60, the differential must be cranked right down. Turn off the power and tighten the range (large nut) 8 1/2 turns. then loosen the differential (small nut) 9 turns and you should be close to 40/60. that's providing the diff spring isn't too short now from compression. Test/adjust as necessary. Then set the air to 37psi. Do you have a working/accurate gauge.

 

[LLigetfa]

Interesting. Looks like you might have a micronizer to add air to the water as it comes in.

LLigetfa has a lot of micronizer experience.

I am late to the party and not going to read this thread in its entirety, but will add the following.

The micronizer can restrict the flow a lot depending on how far closed the bypass valve is. If severely restricted, there may not be enough GPM for proper backwash. I read that it provides 7 GPM.

A micronizer should not be used with a diaphragm tank unless you have some means to trap and remove the air, otherwise the air moves forward into the conditioners and house plumbing. Also, there might not be enough volume in the tank for contact time. HP tanks traditionally hold more volume for a given drawdown rating.

The 15/60 delta is ridiculous and as water pro says, was probably done to try to minimize the nuisance trips of the low pressure cutoff. Lose the low pressure cutoff and get a real protection system if you need one. The differential spring could probably be removed completely as those switches can seldom have less than 20 PSI delta.

That tank probably has an internal limiter dome that the diaphragm is likely hitting up against, so the wide delta is not going to increase the drawdown.

 

[bricktop]

you can adjust it. If it truly is 15/60, the differential must be cranked right down. Turn off the power and tighten the range (large nut) 8 1/2 turns. then loosen the differential (small nut) 9 turns and you should be close to 40/60. that's providing the diff spring isn't too short now from compression. Test/adjust as necessary. Then set the air to 37psi. Do you have a working/accurate gauge.

I thought about doing that. I think the problem is it's easy to pull more than the pump's capacity (at least currently with the micronizer in place) from an outside hose bibb, so the tank drains and pressure drops below what would normally be the 30 psi low pressure cut-out ... then you have to go reset the switch every time. The low pressure cutout is mainly to protect the pump, so that's why I got the pump protector, and going to go back to the standard 40/60 switch.

Most things on the tee look only and crusty, so I ordered a new usa gauge and ball valve from McMaster-Carr (the current service valve is an old pvc one).

 

[bricktop]

The micronizer can restrict the flow a lot depending on how far closed the bypass valve is. If severely restricted, there may not be enough GPM for proper backwash. I read that it provides 7 GPM.

That gives me hope I'll gave good flow for backwashing a newer iron filter. I'm not sure where the micronizer bypass is set to, but since I have no plans on keeping it, I didn't bother adjusting it, I just want to know what my pump can do without it in place.

A micronizer should not be used with a diaphragm tank unless you have some means to trap and remove the air, otherwise the air moves forward into the conditioners and house plumbing. Also, there might not be enough volume in the tank for contact time. HP tanks traditionally hold more volume for a given drawdown rating.

There is an air separation tank after the pressure tank and before the filter, so at least they did that much. I've still noticed rust shoot out the tank tee bib when opened full flow, so I'm fairly certain it's oxidizing and precipitating in the pressure tank as well, though.

The 15/60 delta is ridiculous and as water pro says, was probably done to try to minimize the nuisance trips of the low pressure cutoff. Lose the low pressure cutoff and get a real protection system if you need one. The differential spring could probably be removed completely as those switches can seldom have less than 20 PSI delta.

In progress, just waiting on parts.

Thanks for all the input LLigetfa and everyone else.