Jet Pump can't prime...

[nbailey]

Lost power today for a few hours and after it came back on I have no water. When pump has power it will run indefinitely but not put any water into pressure tank. Pump is a Goulds J05N and has been in the house since it was purchased 10 years ago. I also noticed that the pressure tank was completely drained when the power came back on.

I have pulled the pressure gauge off the top of the pump (discharge has a T fitting on it. Gauge on one side discharge to the pressure tank on the other) and added water then powered on again. When I pull the gauge off again the pump is empty. Repeat, same results.

The pump has two pipes going in to it and I know i can hear either water or air going through at least one (maybe both) when powered on but it also sounds like when I cut power water is running back into the well.

Pump issue? Well issue? I can provide images if needed.

 

[Reach4]

When a jet pump only can produce about 20 psi, the jet orifice may need to be cleaned out with a wire.

That may not match your symptoms, and you may have a different problem.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[nbailey]

The pressure gauge won't lift off of 0 right now.

 

[Midriller]

Is the pump set up on a shallow well or deep well configuration. (1 pipe or 2 pipe) Almost any time you cant prime a jet pump it ends up being a suction leak with the exception of a stuck/leaking check valve or hole in the casing on a 2" deep well concentric setup. If it is a shallow well most times you can hook up a pitcher pump and "hand prime" into a bucket.

 

[nbailey]

The pump is using two pipes to go to the well. I'm not sure what the depth of the well is but from what I have found I believe that a 2 pipe means its a deep well configuration correct? The two pipes run maybe 15-20 feet underground to a 4'x4' underground cement box with lid. Inside I see the 4" well and the two pipes going into it.

I do have another hand pump on the property which is what I have been using to try and prime this pump with.

 

[Reach4]

Inside I see the 4" well and the two pipes going into it.

If you want to leave priming behind you, consider switching to a 3-inch Grundfos SQ pump. More water with less electricity. But yes, the initial cost is significant.

 

[Midriller]

You may have to pull and replace your foot valve, or you have an airleak in your cross pipe. X2 on the drop a submersible in it. Use your suction line as a water line. If your lucky you can chase the wires through the 2nd water line. Initial investment well worth the lack,of future headaches

 

[nbailey]

You may have to pull and replace your foot valve, or you have an airleak in your cross pipe. X2 on the drop a submersible in it. Use your suction line as a water line. If your lucky you can chase the wires through the 2nd water line. Initial investment well worth the lack,of future headaches

What is the easiest way to check the cross pipe (I'm assuming you mean the pipe between home and well?)? Disconnect inside and at well, cap and pressurize to see if there is a drop? It's all black pipe with hose clamps.

I'm assuming changing the foot valve is literally just disconnecting both pipes at the well and pulling out however much length there is then putting it back in? Anything special to look out for besides dropping anything into the well.

I definitely am considering going submersible for the reduced noise alone. How would I go about sizing a replacement? Just by HP or do I need to try and track down the GPM of the current pump?

 

[Reach4]

ersible for the reduced noise alone. How would I go about sizing a replacement? Just by HP or do I need to try and track down the GPM of the current pump?

You get by with a 1/2 HP jet pump. So you would need a 1/4 HP submersible to match, but they don't make those. So my initial guess is model 10SQ05-160. But you would want to check the curves. https://www.geotechnical.net/datasheets/Grundfos/Grundfos_SQ.pdf 140ft is about 60 psi. So subtract about 92ft (at pump cut-on) to 140 ft (pump cut off) from the head to see how far down the water can be. You don't need high flow as the pump approaches cut-off.

How deep is your foot valve now, if you know, and how far down is your water surface?

 

[nbailey]

You get by with a 1/2 HP jet pump. So you would need a 1/4 HP submersible to match, but they don't make those. So my initial guess is model 10SQ05-160. But you would want to check the curves. https://www.geotechnical.net/datasheets/Grundfos/Grundfos_SQ.pdf 140ft is about 60 psi. So subtract about 92ft (at pump cut-on) to 140 ft (pump cut off) from the head to see how far down the water can be. You don't need high flow as the pump approaches cut-off.

How deep is your foot valve now, if you know, and how far down is your water surface?

I don't have any information on the current depth of well. In the morning I think I'm going to take a closer look at the pipes between the house and the well pit. After that I may open up the well cap and verify what piping is used inside the well casing. How much information would my local health department have on the well? I'm sure they would have total well depth but is water level reported or recovery time? Otherwise I'm guessing I will have to pull everything out and measure it myself.

 

[Reach4]

It is probably not that critical. If you got decent water up with a 1/2 hp jet pump, the water could not be too far down.

Your venturi jet is at the top of your tailpipe, and the foot valve is at the bottom of the tailpipe. But if you are pulling the stuff, might as well measure. There will probably be a waterline mark at the normal water level.

Any signs the pit floods? Ideally you would extend the casing with welding, and put in a pitless adapter. There is more than one way to do that... When I had my 4 inch casing extended, I opted for a 4 inch extension, and a clearway pitless. The alternative was to have a 5 inch diameter extension, and that could have allowed a trapezoidal pitless. That would not be DIY stuff. I found my pit did flood, and that motivated me.

 

[nbailey]

It is probably not that critical. If you got decent water up with a 1/2 hp jet pump, the water could not be too far down.

Your venturi jet is at the top of your tailpipe, and the foot valve is at the bottom of the tailpipe. But if you are pulling the stuff, might as well measure. There will probably be a waterline mark at the normal water level.

Any signs the pit floods? Ideally you would extend the casing with welding, and put in a pitless adapter. There is more than one way to do that... When I had my 4 inch casing extended, I opted for a 4 inch extension, and a clearway pitless. The alternative was to have a 5 inch diameter extension, and that could have allowed a trapezoidal pitless. That would not be DIY stuff. I found my pit did flood, and that motivated me.

I check the pit every now and then, might get some surface water but nothing that ever comes up to the top of the well casing. We got some pretty hard rain within the last few days and there is only a little bit right now.

 

[Midriller]

Your venturi is right above the foot valve in a deep well setup. A 1/2 deep well can suck water from 55' depending on the orifice and jettimg, as far as the cross pipes, putting air testing them is the only reliable way I've tried to test them. The health dept may or may not have info.

 

[Valveman]

Checking with compressed air like MD says is the only way to test for a suction leak. Many times it is just easier to replace the pipe and ejector than to find and repair a leak. Usually a suction leak is right where the pipe screws into the pump, as that is where is gets hot. But the leak could also be down the well.

10SQ05-160 will work if you water is 50' or less. Use the 10SQ05-200 if the water is deeper than 50'.

 

[nbailey]

Ok did some more testing this morning. I have a handpump that has a submersible at the bottom. I connected it to the house and used to to pressurize the system. I closed the shutoff after the pressure tank and after about 10 minutes from 65psi down to 48psi. During this time I went out to the pit and could hear what sounds like a "running faucet". Once the pump kicked on the sound in the pit changed changed until I could hear all of the air clear out of what I believe is called the down line. After 20 seconds or so I could hear it struggling and sending air through again.

At that point I went back into the house to look at the pump and it was struggling. I have attached a video of both the sound i was hearing in the pit while trying to see if it would hold pressure and what the pump sounded like. You can also see the water in the discharge "surging".

Pit Sounds

Pump Sounds

Any thoughts? It looks to me like the pipes in the casing are the old lines, not black pipe like I thought.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah looks and sounds like it is sucking in air.

 

[nbailey]

Yeah looks and sounds like it is sucking in air.

Since I hear noise in the well casing like a running faucet I'm assuming that means that there is a leak in a pipe above the water level?

 

[Valveman]

That would be a good place to start since you can't see a leak above ground.

 

[nbailey]

That would be a good place to start since you can't see a leak above ground.

Just a quick additional note. When I cut power to the pump it seems to be holding pressure around 40psi. I feel the pipes going to the well and they are both empty though. Is there any chance that this is a pump issue or does the sound from inside the well casing pretty much ensure it's an issue with the pipes?

 

[nbailey]

I don’t know what’s going on anymore.. before pulling apart the well head I decided to give the pump another try. Primed it using the handpump on the property and this time i ended up with some air between the pump and pressure tank (I have a clear hose, watch video above to see). Bled it out of the system after a few pump cycles and now it will pressure up to 60psi.

I do believe that it is slowly dropping pressure but I don’t see water going back towards the well side anymore.

Was it just that hard to prime? I mentioned earlier the noise I heard coming from the well casing but I don’t hear it anymore.

Water was really orange when it did start working again but after 15 minutes or so has cleared up considerably. At this point I’m just waiting to see what it decides to do next.