Cycle Stop VS VFD Do I really need to covert the system?

[Bunny]

Hello, I am new here and I I could use some advice! Please bare with me for a brief back story :We bought this home in 2020 on acreage, the home itself is only 5 years old however there had been a house on this land before that was pretty old. The builder got approval to use the existing well with I am sure a few changes to bring it to current code. We have a nice filtration system and a well company that does the maintenance on the filtration system, they also do plumbing repair should any of your well pipes leak and well digging and installation. We have a had a couple of leaks in the plumbing at the well head thankfully they were not hard to locate and fix. Now the well company is telling us we need to spend around$ 5000.00 to covert the current Cycle stop system to a VFD they are saying this will stop leaks because our well has a lot of pressure and the opening and closing of the valve is like slamming a door and that is causing the leaks we have had. They say the VFD will slow the pressure and prevent any future leaks. My concern is upon doing research including some stuff on this forum it sounds like the Cycle stop is actually good and that the VFD comes with its own set of potential issues. Opinions on this are valued as this is a lot of money and I am not so sure its the right thing to do thoughts?? Thank you!

 

[Reach4]

How much pressure are the pump sellers claiming that your drop pipe faces?

What is the symptom of the leak-- cycling, or what?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bunny]

How much pressure are the pump sellers claiming that your drop pipe faces?

What is the symptom of the leak-- cycling, or what?

They actually have not said just told us that "upgrading the system" will stop future leaks. The leaks seem to just be in the PVC next to the well head in the most recent case a seal in the connection went bad the last time it was a small crack in the PVC. We find the leak because we see a small amount of standing water by the well head that of course gets bigger until its dug up and fixed This time they have refused to come out and repair the leak unless they can do the upgrade at the same time. Felt like our water was being held hostage, they did not seem a bit concerned that its 94 degrees and I have livestock that needs water! Doing research I am just not sure if we should do this upgrade. I am going to look through some emails and paperwork to see if I can get any more info

 

[Reach4]

Do you have a pitless adapter, or does your water pipe come out above ground?

Don't use water for a while. Does your pump run periodically or your pressure drop? If not, they are scamming you. And even if the pump does cycle every 20 minutes, they may still be scamming you.

 

[Bunny]

Do you have a pitless adapter, or does your water pipe come out above ground?

Don't use water for a while. Does your pump run periodically or your pressure drop? If not, they are scamming you. And even if the pump does cycle every 20 minutes, they may still be scamming you.

I have attached a photo for you, our pressure never drops its very consistent good water pressure

 

[Bunny]

Do you have a pitless adapter, or does your water pipe come out above ground?

Don't use water for a while. Does your pump run periodically or your pressure drop? If not, they are scamming you. And even if the pump does cycle every 20 minutes, they may still be scamming you.

sorry forgot to attach!

 

[John Gayewski]

If you happy with your water other than the leaks I would keep the system you have. I'm not sure how their claim could be true UNLESS something is actually slamming shut and causing water hammer. If you have 60 psi restricting the flow doesn't increase pressure. If their claim that the pump is causing too much pressure I think the pvc manufacturers would disagree.

The real question is are you hearing or seeing any signs of water hammer? Large spikes on a gauge? Sounds like a loud bang or machine gun firing? If so those shock waves from the sudden stoppage of water can cause a lot of force to be created. But pressure at 60psi shouldn't cause pipe to break.

The authority on this would be @Valveman

 

[Bunny]

If you happy with your water other than the leaks I would keep the system you have. I'm not sure how their claim could be true UNLESS something is actually slamming shut and causing water hammer. If you have 60 psi restricting the flow doesn't increase pressure. If their claim that the pump is causing too much pressure I think the pvc manufacturers would disagree.

The real question is are you hearing or seeing any signs of water hammer? Large spikes on a gauge? Sounds like a loud bang or machine gun firing? If so those shock waves from the sudden stoppage of water can cause a lot of force to be created. But pressure at 60psi shouldn't cause pipe to break.

The authority on this would be @Valveman

Not hearing any of those things at all! we have really great consistent pressure with no issues the filtration system works well and it does not cycle overly frequent . This is what has caused pause for me other then a easily (so far) leak repair once every yr this system works just fine and we have no reason to believe any excessive pressure is happening so spending alot of money right now (which honestly would be hard to do) is warrented

 

[Fitter30]

Have any info on what pump you have brand and model. Pump curve with depth of pump? With a vfd the single phase pump would get changed out to a three phase so the vfd could vary the speed. CSV works off the shut off pressure of the pump and shouldn't be slamming shut Has only a few moving parts where vfd is electronic and they can have problems also.

 

[Bunny]

Have any info on what pump you have brand and model. Pump curve with depth of pump? With a vfd the single phase pump would get changed out to a three phase so the vfd could vary the speed. CSV works off the shut off pressure of the pump and shouldn't be slamming shut Has only a few moving parts where vfd is electronic and they can have problems also.

I do not have the info and my husband and I are currently trying to figure it all out. I do not believe that it is slamming shut, this is the way the well company explained what they thought was happening and why we should upgrade the system. I should add they have been trying to get us to upgrade to a VFD since they first maintenance the filtration system the year we bought the home. Since we have had the leaks they are saying its the fault of the CSV and as you have said here that system is also not free of its own issues and many feel the CSV is a better less problematic system. It is possible I think that the leaks have occurred because the well is much older then the current home and these things can happen with plumbing over time??? I appreciate everyone's help and opinions here and as I find more info on our system I will post it!

 

[Bannerman]

Provide details on the depth of the well, pump depth, static water level and well recovery rate if known. Also specify pump details including HP, and pump model.

Are there multiple check valves installed or is there only one check valve located directly at the pump?

Suggest finding a new well contractor that understands how a CSV functions and is not out to downgrade you with a high priced VFD system that has a short service life.

 

[Bunny]

Provide details on the depth of the well, pump depth, static water level and well recovery rate if known. Also specify pump details including HP, and pump model.

Are there multiple check valves installed or is there only one check valve located directly at the pump?

Suggest finding a new well contractor that understands how a CSV functions and is not out to downgrade you with a high priced VFD system that has a short service life.

Thank you for the info! I somehow feel like we are either being scammed or this particular company really believes that VFD is the only way to go. May I ask do you know where we find the info on our well?

 

[Bannerman]

do you know where we find the info on our well?

Don't know for certain, but maybe the link below will be a good starting point.
ttps://ecology.wa.gov/Regulations-Permits/Guidance-technical-assistance/Well-report-gateway

 

[Bunny]

Don't know for certain, but maybe the link below will be a good starting point.
ttps://ecology.wa.gov/Regulations-Permits/Guidance-technical-assistance/Well-report-gateway

Thank you I will give that a try!

 

[Reach4]

You have a pitless adapter.

It looks as if you might have a check valve where the pitless output comes out. If so, that is weird.

What is your symptom. If you turn the power back in, may I presume that water comes out somewhere? If so where. Maybe take a more closeup of that area if the leak is visible. And since they have dug down, I guess the water is coming out in an area that can be seen after excavation.

This leak should be readily fixable, I would think. And if you put in a new variable speed pump without fixing the leak, you would still have a leak.

 

[Valveman]

Sorry for your problem and for being treated so badly by the pump contractors. I am sure for them the VFD is the ONLY way to go. Nothing else makes them more money in the short run and the long run than a VFD. But that means the VFD is certainly not the best thing for the homeowner. With a little information about your pump, I could tell you how much pressure it can build and if your sch 40 pipe is rated to handle that pressure. My guess is that the pipe is rated for plenty of pressure and water hammer from the extra check valve is breaking the pipe. There is a check valve first thing out of the well to the right. That check valve causes tremendous water hammer on pump start that can cause several times more pressure than your pump can even build. After the check valve is a PVC union. PVC unions should not be buried and may not be rated for enough pressure as the tightening ring will break off. It is also hard to get the pipe length exactly correct so when they tighten the union it pulls on the pipe and puts it under undue stress. Remove the check valve and glue the pipe together without the union.

A CSV cannot completely close, so it cannot "slam" shut for any reason. What is slamming or causing the slam is that extra and unneeded check valve, which will cause the problems you are having.

Unscrupulous pump guys will blame any problem on the CSV and try to "upgrade" you to a VFD. The CSV was designed to replace VFD's and solve all the problems that go with VFD's, not the other way around. As long as a VFD is working and you can afford to keep it working, it is great because it varies the flow to produce constant pressure the same way a CSV does. But after replacing a VFD 2-5 times most people end up with a CSV and never have to think about their water system again.

 

[Bunny]

Sorry for your problem and for being treated so badly by the pump contractors. I am sure for them the VFD is the ONLY way to go. Nothing else makes them more money in the short run and the long run than a VFD. But that means the VFD is certainly not the best thing for the homeowner. With a little information about your pump, I could tell you how much pressure it can build and if your sch 40 pipe is rated to handle that pressure. My guess is that the pipe is rated for plenty of pressure and water hammer from the extra check valve is breaking the pipe. There is a check valve first thing out of the well to the right. That check valve causes tremendous water hammer on pump start that can cause several times more pressure than your pump can even build. After the check valve is a PVC union. PVC unions should not be buried and may not be rated for enough pressure as the tightening ring will break off. It is also hard to get the pipe length exactly correct so when they tighten the union it pulls on the pipe and puts it under undue stress. Remove the check valve and glue the pipe together without the union.

A CSV cannot completely close, so it cannot "slam" shut for any reason. What is slamming or causing the slam is that extra and unneeded check valve, which will cause the problems you are having.

Unscrupulous pump guys will blame any problem on the CSV and try to "upgrade" you to a VFD. The CSV was designed to replace VFD's and solve all the problems that go with VFD's, not the other way around. As long as a VFD is working and you can afford to keep it working, it is great because it varies the flow to produce constant pressure the same way a CSV does. But after replacing a VFD 2-5 times most people end up with a CSV and never have to think about their water system again.

Thank you sooooo much ! Now because I am ignorant to how all this works and my husband and I are working to find as much info as possible on our well (education can go a long way I think to not being taken advantage of!) @Reach4 has also been helping and you both mention the check valve I have added a photo with a circle around what I think is the check valve? If so I found a plumber who is willing to come tomorrow and repair the pipe that part I circled is what keeps leaking it takes about a year but it ends up leaking again. So if Thats it can I ask the plumber not to put that back in and do what your saying? My husband temporarily fixed it as it was leaking bad and we had no water his fix worked but it still has a slow leak he likes to say "I do pest control I'm not a plumber!" LOL Since the Well people we had been using refused to come and repair the leak as they told me its going to keep happening unless we upgrade the system and plumbers and well people are super busy right now we had no choice but to give a go to fix it so while he may not be a plumber he is getting us through until they can come!
I also followed a link I was given @Bannerman to try and find well info and nothing is coming up. So how can I find info about our well that will help you like how much pressure it builds etc? I am going to go take some more photos that perhaps will help you and will post them here in a few. Again I thank you for your time and help!

 

[Bunny]

You have a pitless adapter.

It looks as if you might have a check valve where the pitless output comes out. If so, that is weird.

What is your symptom. If you turn the power back in, may I presume that water comes out somewhere? If so where. Maybe take a more closeup of that area if the leak is visible. And since they have dug down, I guess the water is coming out in an area that can be seen after excavation.

This leak should be readily fixable, I would think. And if you put in a new variable speed pump without fixing the leak, you would still have a leak.

Thank you!! I am learning a lot here and I really appreciate it! So the issue is where I have circled on the photo water just sprays and I mean like a fire hose out of that connection we had the area dug and thought it would save time for the plumber. My husband also temp fixed it as best he could it still has a slow small leak but its working so we have water until the plumber comes on Friday.

The well company basically told me they wont fix the leak unless we agree to having them upgrade the system to the VFD at the same time because they believe that the upgrade will forever solve our leak issue we have once per year. I explained that we don't have thousands of dollars laying around to do that right now and their answer was sorry we have to fix it the right way. They basically told me they would leave me out of water for weeks while i tried to get the money. Thankfully I did find someone willing to come and fix the leak since they were not going to have to spend the extra time finding it as we already exposed it. So that sent me on a mission and lead me here thankfully to find out if we did indeed need to spent the $5000.00 or more to do this upgrade. It is sounding more and more like we dont and our actual issue may just have to do with the actual plumbing thank you again!

 

[Bunny]

Sorry for your problem and for being treated so badly by the pump contractors. I am sure for them the VFD is the ONLY way to go. Nothing else makes them more money in the short run and the long run than a VFD. But that means the VFD is certainly not the best thing for the homeowner. With a little information about your pump, I could tell you how much pressure it can build and if your sch 40 pipe is rated to handle that pressure. My guess is that the pipe is rated for plenty of pressure and water hammer from the extra check valve is breaking the pipe. There is a check valve first thing out of the well to the right. That check valve causes tremendous water hammer on pump start that can cause several times more pressure than your pump can even build. After the check valve is a PVC union. PVC unions should not be buried and may not be rated for enough pressure as the tightening ring will break off. It is also hard to get the pipe length exactly correct so when they tighten the union it pulls on the pipe and puts it under undue stress. Remove the check valve and glue the pipe together without the union.

A CSV cannot completely close, so it cannot "slam" shut for any reason. What is slamming or causing the slam is that extra and unneeded check valve, which will cause the problems you are having.

Unscrupulous pump guys will blame any problem on the CSV and try to "upgrade" you to a VFD. The CSV was designed to replace VFD's and solve all the problems that go with VFD's, not the other way around. As long as a VFD is working and you can afford to keep it working, it is great because it varies the flow to produce constant pressure the same way a CSV does. But after replacing a VFD 2-5 times most people end up with a CSV and never have to think about their water system again.

Here are some photos of the system the filtration and the other parts that go with the well I am hopeful this helps in some way. I am also realizing I circled the PVC union so that is not what you are talking about. Is the check valve coming off the side of the well head the metal parts I circled it in the photo if so which part is the check valve and should be removed. Also is it possible the state I live in requires that check valve???
So for tomorrow I am asking the plumber to not put the PVC union back but to use straight pipe is that correct thanks again!

 

[Reach4]

Three blue circles are around the union. The suspected check valve is in the big blue circle in "welll pipe.jpg". A check valve would have an arrow pointing away from the casing.

The arrow might be cast into the underside. So rinse that off, and if you don't see an arrow, use a mirror. If your cellphone can work that close, maybe you could take a photo from below.