Year round lake system for house and irrigation

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shubb1282

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Looking to install a water system for a roughly 3000sqft house on .54 acre lot in North Idaho with in ground water storage (thinking 3000 gallon)

distance from lake to in ground storage is about 400ft, rise of about 150ft.
Thinking to do a manual valve drainback system. This is due to cost of excavation over that distance to stay below the frost line, and the cost of having to probably have heat tape anyway at the shoreline. May access to lake is through an easement, power is roughly the same distance as water (400ft). Easement does allow manifold and necessary equipment at shoreline property. With the manual valve I can keep the line full of water at least 6 months out of the year, then let it be a drain back when there's a freezing danger.

Had a couple of quotes, both from recommended local companies. Both are recommending VFD's but not necessarily pushing them.

Lake pump
drive pumps
1 quote had the pentek intellikit 1.5hp 15gpm
1 quote had 1hp 7gpm I think this was a franklin unit with the mismatched pump motor
traditional pump
1 quote had 1hp 15gpm pump/motor/control box

reservoir pump/s
1 quote uses pentair intellikit 1.5hp 20gpm
1 quote uses 2 DAB divers pump

both quotes recommend ozone filters in the reservoir
and both quotes use 3 stage filter system in house (20 micron, 5 micron, UV filter) in typical blue filter housing. One quote lists this by name Aqua UV 12gpm triple housing filter.

Drive pumps require a special box for safety tripping of electrical faults with lake portion. I think it was called the waterhawk at $6k roughly all people in the area have said this is the only uv listed device that meets code. traditional pumps use use a normal GFCI

After trying some research on my own, a lot of questions ended up on this forum. So I thought this was the place to make sure I'm doing the correct thing out of the gate. Valveman has me thinking VFD is not the way to go and CSV is the answer but I am getting some pushback from both outfits on this (arguments tend to match what valveman says you will hear, harder on pumps, less efficient, less customizeable, lower quality of life because of less features, not pushing proper amounts of water through pump for cooling) but I am in the area (30min from spokane) where he says one of the worst pump people in the country is from, and not sure how much influence he has on local training/product pushing with other outfits.

I would like a reliable system, I am on a budget but willing for increased cost where it makes sense for efficency, quality of life (features/pressure), longevity of components.

1. recommended lake pump
2. recommended reservoir pump/pumps (house and irrigation)
3. in ground reservoir materiel concrete or poly (3000 gal pre cast concrete is whats being pushed)
4. recommended controls for recommended pump, csv etc
5. Am I reasonable in doing the drain back system, or is i worth quite a bit of larger upfront cost for pressurized year round, does it save much money/electric that I would make this back over time?
6. My mom's house off of a well has one of the larger pressure tanks and filters in the pantry and we do like that it naturally keeps that room cool in all seasons. is this easy to keep in my system or does it just make 0 sense and keep with the small pressure tank at the reservoir.

Hopefully this is the correct place for these questions, thank you in advance for your time.
 

Valveman

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I know pump guys are out to make money. But I find what you are being told and quoted as unscrupulous. They are trying their best to talk you out of the least expensive, most reliable, and longest lasting pump system, which would be the Cycle Stop Valve system. The things they are telling you about the CSV are either malicious or ignorant.

You don't need a 7 GPM, 1HP, or a 20 GPM, 1.5HP lake pump with only 150' of lift. The 1HP, 15 GPM is closer. But a 3/4HP, 10 GPM would pump 14,400 gallons a day to the cistern. How much water do you need? I would use a 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark pump, because they would work for both the lake pump and booster pump. Plus they only cost 170 bucks and are as good as the name brand pumps. Drill a hole in the check valve of the lake pump and let it drain back every time. The air will just come out at the cistern before the water and you won't have to worry about freezing. Make sure to use a shroud on any submersible pump, which can also be made long enough to also become a good lake screen. All you need at the cistern is a float switch.

Using the same 1HP, 170 dollar pump (with an additional good check valve) and a $525.00 PK1A constant pressure pump control kit from Cycle Stop Valves makes for a long lasting booster or cistern pump that will produce strong constant pressure to the house.

Simple like the Cycle Stop Valve is what makes a pump system dependable and long lasting. I would not trust a thing those contractors are telling you as they obviously do not have your best interest in mind. That is why so many people are DIY these days.

Since you are pumping lake water, spend your money on a filter system as a pump system with a Cycle Stop Valve is very inexpensive. Would like to know how much the quotes for those other pump systems are? Bet it is several times as much as the system I just described.

Cistern Storage Tank with Submersible Booster Pump .png
 

shubb1282

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Attached the quotes below. 1st one the DAB divers pumps are $3800. I think I read in one of your posts that there was some worry with turbulence in tank causing rapid cycling of the float and subsequently the pump.
Is there a float style that removes this risk?
Any worry of the pump spinning backwards while water is draining from line back through drilled out check valve and restarting causing damage?
Any worry that lake head pressure from water level above drilled check valve will leave a static level of water in poly that could freeze?
Are you completely against having a manual valve keeping the line primed for most of the year and making it a drain back system the same time of year we blow our sprinklers out? Juice not worth the squeeze?
Any opinions on here about precast vs poly in ground tank? not finiding a lot of info on these other than from poly tank sellers.

company 1 quote.jpg
company 2 drive pump.jpg
company 2 standard.jpg
 

Valveman

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All I can say is WOW! Here is how I would do a cistern and booster pump for $4,022.00. Does not include labor and permits.

Cistern booster pump

1HP, 33GPM, 220V, Hallmark pump
https://www.ebay.com/itm/290825831348
$170.00

1 ¼ check valve
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Boshart...QIueO2CcdD5zzm-QBhkU4S6HN9IXEaZAaApD_EALw_wcB
$62.00

PK1A Pump Control Kit
https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/frontpage/products/custom-pk1a-pside-kick-kit
$525.00

Dry run protector
https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/cycle-sensor-pump-monitors
$255.00

3000 gallon cistern
https://www.plastic-mart.com/norwes..._SMga57a6fyLMD2em5u4gQaAknHEALw_wcB#color=174
$2,240.00

Misc fittings
Maybe $500.00

Cistern pump total

$4,022.00
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
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And WOW again! Here is how I would do the lake pump for $1,567.00. Does not include labor and permits.

Lake pump

1HP, 33GPM, 220V, Hallmark pump
https://www.ebay.com/itm/290825831348
$170.00

Dry run protector
https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/cycle-sensor-pump-monitors
$255.00

Float Switch
$62.00

600’ of 1 ¼” 160# poly pipe and conduit
https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...er-poly-pipe/13370/p-1444431553409-c-8570.htm
$580.00

500’ of 10/4 THHN wire
https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/10-4c-thhn-pvc-tray-cable
$850.00

Misc fittings
Maybe $500.00

Lake pump total

$1,567.00
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
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I think I read in one of your posts that there was some worry with turbulence in tank causing rapid cycling of the float and subsequently the pump.
Is there a float style that removes this risk?


Just don't plumb the discharge into the tank where it makes waves.

Any worry of the pump spinning backwards while water is draining from line back through drilled out check valve and restarting causing damage?

Yes. Spinning backwards is hard on the motor and can cause a broken shaft if started when spinning back like a after a short power outage.

Any worry that lake head pressure from water level above drilled check valve will leave a static level of water in poly that could freeze?

No. Just a 1/4" hole in the check valve will drain fast and far enough without back spinning the pump.

Are you completely against having a manual valve keeping the line primed for most of the year and making it a drain back system the same time of year we blow our sprinklers out? Juice not worth the squeeze?

Not worth the effort. Just let it drain back all the time. Like me you would forget and the line would freeze. Lol!

Any opinions on here about precast vs poly in ground tank? not finding a lot of info on these other than from poly tank sellers.

I linked to one tank. But there are MANY options.
 

Reach4

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Do you have good access to the lake? Maybe no cistern needed.
 
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shubb1282

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Thanks for the great reply’s, working on the scheduling now and I feel that I have a better grasp on things. I’ll update when I start moving forward, mainly waiting on excavators schedule now, doing this professionally to keep the liability from working around the lake, crossing roads and easements off of my shoulders.

Going with the cistern for a few reasons, in case of algae blooms, contaminated water I have a place for water delivery if needed, it also gives me some time if a neighbor cuts through my water line or whatever leaks/problems/maintenance/lack of power, I have a grace period before out of water. Access to lake right at my location is only through my 10’ easement, 400’ away and 150’ elevation roughly. Public access is about 2 miles away
 
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