Well Pump / Small Leak - Pitless leak possible?

[oneskinnydave]

I had a new constant pressure well system put in almost 2 years ago at this point - no issues really but had the system kick off the other day with an overvoltage error so I restarted it and everything was fine. I did notice the pressure was dropping ~5-6psi every 30-40 seconds or so, then kicking back on - we noticed our electric bills creeping up the last few months, so I’m guessing it’s been going on for a little while now. I was able to shut the main off inside and still get a pressure drop so I know it’s somewhere outside.

I had the plumber that installed the system come out - they thought it might be the check valve, which I think they replaced at the pump, and inspected the pitless adapter, and replaced the o-ring inside - at that time not much had changed. They suggested next step to inspect the outside seal of the adapter and throw a check valve inside the house (though that wouldn’t fix the problem obviously!).

I’ve dug down to the adapter this weekend (sheesh that was a workout!) - and I don’t see any excessive leaking - let it sit overnight and no pooling or anything out of the ordinary, just some sore muscles.

I decided to shut the water down late last night at the main in the house to see how much cycling was going on (I was working in the storage area next to it) - and it….was holding pressure…which was made me question everything! Did some testing now the family is out of the house - so far it's been 45 minutes and only dropped 1psi at the inside unit.

I'm going to send a better camera down into the casing to see if I see any tell tale signs of water - I sent down a cheap inspection camera which was hard to tell, but might get a gopro and flashlight down there on a pole to get a better shot of it all - but is there anything else I'm overlooking here? I might shut the pump off overnight and see how much pressure I lose while closing the main valve too, it just gets tricky in a household of 6 right now!

 

[Reach4]

I’ve dug down to the adapter this weekend (sheesh that was a workout!) - and I don’t see any excessive leaking - let it sit overnight and no pooling or anything out of the ordinary, just some sore muscles.

Excessive leaking outside of the pitless? Should be zero, don't you think?

decided to shut the water down late last night at the main in the house to see how much cycling was going on (I was working in the storage area next to it) - and it….was holding pressure…which was made me question everything! Did some testing now the family is out of the house - so far it's been 45 minutes and only dropped 1psi at the inside unit.

In addition to the other things, a failing pressure tank could contribute to the frequency of cycling.

1 PSI is close to the resolution. Temperature changes could play a part, if things get colder.

Another effect, I think, is that the pressure tank diaphragm relaxes with time. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....lbs-of-pressure-at-cut-off.67940/#post-504741 shows what I observed with my 44 gallon tank. The relaxation effect should level off after a few minutes.

 

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[oneskinnydave]

Ah - good to know aobut the diaphragm relaxing - didn't think of that. It took about 1.5 hours for it do drop a full 5psi so maybe that's within range, need to look into that more I guess. I wasn't expecting that since it's only 2 years old at this point - but definitely worth a look!

I wasn't expecting water at the pitless, but the installer said that would be the next step in trouble shooting from their side so I could either pay them a ton of money to do it....or get some frustration out on my side and check it

 

[Reach4]

h - good to know aobut the diaphragm relaxing - didn't think of that. It took about 1.5 hours for it do drop a full 5psi so maybe that's within range, need to look into that more I guess. I wasn't expecting that since it's only 2 years old at this point - but definitely worth a look!

How about a picture of what you see in your hole? If you suspect a leak, I wonder if another 1/8 turn on the nut would help.


If you see water, is it ground water or well water -- that is what you are wondering. Maybe placing some toilet paper or paper towel at strategic locations could let you identify the direction of travel of the water.

 

[Valveman]

The pitless would be leaking inside the casing, not on the outside. Some of those constant pressure pumps like a Subdrive ore monodrive can be really really hard on the check valve. With a small tank 5 PSI loss is a lot.

 

[Reach4]

The pitless would be leaking inside the casing, not on the outside. Some of those constant pressure pumps like a Subdrive ore monodrive can be really really hard on the check valve. With a small tank 5 PSI loss is a lot.

Good point. On some pitless adapter, they pressurize the pass-thru hole, but the majority do not.

Pressurized Pitless Adapters - Boshart Industries

• NSF/ANSI 372 Certified

boshart.com

1" Pressurized Pitless Adapter, Stainless Steel | SSMBP200

DescriptionConnect your submersible well pump with confidence using a Merrill MFG No Lead Brass Durable adapter. Its 2-piece slide design creates a secure seal that can be permanently mounted on the well casing. Made of solid No lead brass for long-lasting reliability, the Merrill Pitless...

www.merrillmfg.com

 

[oneskinnydave]

How about a picture of what you see in your hole? If you suspect a leak, I wonder if another 1/8 turn on the nut would help.


If you see water, is it ground water or well water -- that is what you are wondering. Maybe placing some toilet paper or paper towel at strategic locations could let you identify the direction of travel of the water.

I don't see any water pooling on the outside - which I guess is a good sign. Attached is what I see after 24 hours of being dug up - no real noticeable water or even extra damp areas.

I just checked my camera I have on it monitoring and looks like I lost 5psi in about 3.5 hours last night - which isn't terrible but still not sure if that is ok or not.

The installer used a ball valve just as the poly entered the house (I think that's all they had on the truck), so I think i might shut the pump down when it builds pressure and shut the ball valve down, then the water main after the pressure switch - that should isolate the tank/pressure switch (I have an analog pressure valve there as well) and I can let it sit for a few hours to see if that is indeed where I'm losing pressure. I guess I might fill this hole back in before it rains too!

 

[Valveman]

Wrap those hose clamps and all metal pipe and fittings with electric tape before you fill the hole.

That 4.4 gallon tank holds 1 gallon of water. So, you are losing about 2 gallons a day. Yes, close the ball valve to the house to make sure the leak isn't in the house. But with the ball valve closed if you still lose pressure, I am still guessing a bad check valve. Again, variable speed pumps are hard on check valves.

Hopefully you have a single phase motor running on that "Solo" controller. That way when you get tired of being out of water. messing with the variable speed controller, or just tire of replacing the $2K-$3K Solo controller often, you can switch the Solo to a regular motor control box. Then adding a Cycle Stop Valve will give you strong constant pressure without all the problems and costs associated with variable speed pumps and controllers.

 

[Bannerman]

The installer used a ball valve just as the poly entered the house (I think that's all they had on the truck),

There should normally be no valves located between the pump and the pressure tank/pressure switch since isolating the pump from the tank & switch could cause the pump to become activated in a deadhead state, which could cause the pump to rapidly overheat and fail.

Since it appears that valve's handle is removed, at least there will be less potential for someone to close the valve without realizing the potential consequences.

 

[JohnCT]

I had to have my pitless dug up and replaced for a serious leak, and it didn't leak a drop outside the casing. In my case, I could literally hear it spraying inside the casing when I walked by it on a quiet night.

Get a really bright flashlight and look down the casing at the pitless and look for water spraying.

John

 

[pcmeiners]

"Since it appears that valve's handle is removed, at least there will be less potential for someone to close the valve without realizing the potential consequences."

A full flow gate valve should be used instead of a ball valve if used before pressure tanks and after the pressure switch. If a ball valve is turned off fast I have seen my pressure jump up to over >180 for a split second until the submersible pump stops, which could possibly cause damage due to the pressure spike . That is even with to the pressure switch cutting power to the pump at 60psi. With a gate valve there is no possibility of a pressure spike as it take many turn to close it not allowing pressure to build rapidly.