Try water system again

[Alternety]

A long time ago, in a place far away; I screwed up in making a water system.

Recently I re-investigated what I had done and it is not useful. The biggest issue is the handling of various forms of Arsenic (0.017 mg/L). My report failed to differentiate 3 and 5 Arsenic.

Original installation is one of the early (Maytag) whole house filter. I have been completely unable to find a new nano-filter for the device. No new documentation or parts. The product changed hands (I believe at least 3 times). But no one seemed to survive. I drove to Canada to get one because of deeply stupid distribution practices. S0 - I have no way to refresh the device. Even the original design people refused to answer anything. It does not appear that the membrane actually does what I thought.

Move forward to today. Amongst the issues, I have seen the As is getting through. And seems have I have both As 3 and 5.

I am replacing a under the counter system that simply did not work.

I have just ordered a new and more extensive under counter unit. But it is not clear that the As is resolved. So I now have two systems that do not seem to filter As 3 and 5.

More research has led me to MetSorb®HMRGand HMRP adsorbents. There may be others. I would take out the existing whole house filter (unsupported) and do something else.

Just what I will do is basically what I would like for some help. Other sets of materials that can be the equivalent of the MetSorb and other products. Two other desired items are Iron (0.48 mg/L) and Manganese (0.12 mg/L). Where should I go with this for similar compounds. Then, where is the overall system structure that must be assembled. In the water storage tank (septic tank which does not seal, that includes slugs, ants, various biological material, valves frozen because not suitable with stainless steel).

Best final solution (I think) is feed all water in from the well (into 2 internal tanks), and a filter system that cleans all existing components. What that would be is what I am soliciting information for. Suggestions are very welcome.

Equipment for complete water cleaning. Whatever makes sense. Proper storage and filtration.

 

[Bannerman]

Can you post a current lab test report for your raw well water?

You didn't mention the model of Maytag filter you are using.
A search for Maytag whole house filters shows 3 models, MWF 4200AWS, MHW4300AWS and MHW4100AWS.

The manual for those 3 models does not indicate any have been tested and NSF certified to remove arsenic.

Models MWF4200AWS and MWF4300AWS:
System Tested and Certified by NSF International against NSF/ANSI 42 and 53 for:
•Cyst Reduction
•Turbidity Reduction
•Particulate Reduction - Class 1


Model MWF4100AWS:
System Tested and Certified by NSF International against
NSF/ANSI 42 and 53 for:
•Cyst Reduction
•Turbidity Reduction
•Particulate Reduction - Class 1
•Chlorine, Taste and Odour Reduction
Chlorine Reduction Capacity Rating:
396,000/105,000 (litres/gallons)
Do not use the MWF4100AWS, with activated carbon filter option, with water that is
microbiologically unsafe or of unknown quality unless adequate disinfection before or after the
System. Models with activated carbon filter option certified for cyst reduction may be used on
disinfected waters that may contain filterable cysts.

Is your well recovery rate so low that additional storage is required?

The undercounter system you refer to, is that a Reverse Osmosis system or something else?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Alternety]

The Maytag is a Models MWF4500AWS. I have never been able to find a replacement nano filter; and I have no idea what condition it is in. If I had a filter I would leave it where it is and add other filtration. But I don't have it so, it can be ignored as a pre-filter and removed.

I only have a paper report of the water. Here are the ones that seem most important.

Conductivity - 407 uohms/cm
pH - 7.80
pH - 48 hr air exposure 8.3
Alkalinity - 180 mg CaCo3/L
Chloride - 39 mg/L
Hardness - 49 mg CaCO3/L
Calcium Hardness - 31 mg
Sulfate - 29 mg/L
Total Dissolved Solids - 280 mg/L
Turbidity - 1 ntu
Nitrate + Nitrite 0.5 mg NO3 - N/L

Arsenic - 0.017 Did not separate 3 and 5 - they note a Chlorine disinfection would help

CATIONS
Copper - 0.014 mg/L RAW submitted untreated 0.05
Iron - 0.02 mg/L RAW submitted untreated 0.48
Manganese - 0.004 RAW submitted untreated 0.12
Zinc - 0.005 mg/L
Sodium - 88
Potassium - 1.3
Calcium Hardness - 12 mg Ca/L
Magnesium Hardness - 4.6 mg Mg/L

Arsenic - 0.017

A bit more background.

Well is about 500'. I have gone through 4 pumps. Three failed. I have experienced having no water for days and weeks; finding a delivery service to fill water tank and cost. I am trying not to copy these situations. The storage tank will be removed and a better one put in the ground. That has been a mess since a contractor put in a septic tank instead of the specified water tank. Tank is not sealed well enough and is partially above ground and allows sunlight in as well (yes; I have tried a cover over it).

There needs to be a fillable tank at all times. I will be working on this. Water is also an essential resource. This year there was a forest fire about 300' away from my house. 12 fire trucks and two helicopters dumping water. Some idiot with a cigarette. You can see the point of origin quite clearly. Correct wind direction was unusual and saved our house. I am getting bigger tank (in black).

So; what I believe I need.

External storage tank that actually works. Probably in a well house.
Water processing to completely process water to necessary standards.

- 3 storage water tanks in basement available

Maytag not usable without nano filter - probably will simply be removed

I will have an under sink RO system for drinking water - previous device thrown away. The new one will be here in a couple of days to carry over drinking water until full refurbishment for whole house (realized showers are bad to take with Arsenic in the water). But I do not know for certain that the new unit will filter the Arsenic. Vendor unsure. And if not - here I go again.

I want the entire system brought to full performance. With better monitoring.

Picture of new under counter.

 

[Reach4]

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/Healt...r/SourceWater/Documents/gw/arsenicremoval.pdf may have some useful info. I note your sulfate level is a little higher than they recommend for resin arsenic removal.

 

[Alternety]

I had a thought. I have been scouring the internet trying to find a relatively inexpensive set of test strips just for As V and As 3.

Anyone know of a source. It would be very helpful information for knowing what I need to do.

 

[ditttohead]

Anion removal of arsenic is rarely used in private well applications for a multitude of reasons so need to bother looking at that option. You purchased an online RO not knowing if it will work? Not sure where to go with that one.

As to a treatment method, are you willing to spend an appropriate amount of money to correct the problem or are you just trying to band aid it? A maytag system with nano does not remove arsenic. This topic is a little more complex than a simple DIY forum... I would be glad to assist you with some resources and ideas. In general, you are going to want to reduce the iron and manganese prior to Arsenic reduction. I will send you a PM.

 

[Alternety]

Thank you for your input.

Background - there is a "not very good" under cabinet unit in the house. This unit was a mistake. Absolutely no information. Simple system. I am taking that out. I should have a new and much more complete system today or tomorrow. That is done just for drinking water as an intermediate solution. Not optimal, and I am not sure if even the new RO system is sufficient. I am working on it.

With that in place I want to re-do the whole house system (i.e., the Maytag) with something else where I can find materials when needed. I have to get rid of the Maytag; but no parts/no keep.

I will require processing to remove As 3 and As5 and some other content. As noted in the list of water components, there are a number of other contaminants that require processing. All of these WILL be removed. There will be at least one pre-filter until I replace the installed storage tank.

After the under counter install; I am going to configure a whole house filtration system. It must be clean water at a very high level of removing whatever is bad for a human. Look at the post above for water contents.

Information on the cleaning of target water contents would be very helpful.

If I can not find a home As test, I will have to send out a test. I would like to avoid driving to a fairly distant testing company. The previous report I have skips the presence of As differentiation. I need that information for treatment. All of the water contents of my water provides targets for filtration/neutralization.

A significant need - PLEASE HELP ME TO FIND A SIMPLE HOME TEST FOR THE As TWINS.

MetSorb® HMRP Adsorbent looks like a useful approach.

 

[Reach4]

A significant need - PLEASE HELP ME TO FIND A SIMPLE HOME TEST FOR THE As TWINS.

Hach not simple enough, or what?

 

[Alternety]

Could you possibly tell me what you are saying?

 

[Reach4]

Could you possibly tell me what you are saying?

Click Inbox, above.

 

[Alternety]

The RO system being delivered seems to be a decent component. Yes I did look at many devices and talk to providers. Not exciting. I am leaving intact the existing filter system. If I can get one or two MetSorb filters into the existing system; I am good until a whole house system. It is quick and relatively inexpensive, My choice.

Next step is a whole house PO system. I am still trying to evaluate what I am going to do. There are a large number of sellers. Filtering out systems with issues is taking a long time. Just finding the filters is rather tedious.

At this point, a couple of good helpful references with clear and useful information would be an immense help. Many just want you to buy their "thing" without a whole lot of real information. It must be able to remove As of all flavors. That is what I REQUIRE. MetSorb (or equivalent materials) appears to be the best solution. If this is not the right way to do it - please explain clearly why. How my total water system built is not of interest for the exercise. It is currently ugly; but it works. And what I am doing now is an interim configuration.

I will not allow contractors into my house. Guess why. I can work with the parts (with sufficient information). I may have to move components in the room holding all the assorted systems.

Assistance will be gratefully accepted.

 

[Alternety]

I am trying to understand how to use the site. I am not sure what I try actually works.

I have set up a private conversation on my account for the two providing assistance.

There are so many alternatives out there. A number of the possible products hide information and want a new customer account. I don't really want to be planting those accounts around the internet.

The conversation may make a better playing field. I also found what Hach means.

Any evaluation on the small system I am buying would be of interest. The image above has the hardware. It was my best shot from the multitude. Probably more expensive than needed; but it is thoroughly documented and provides what appears to be a quality support operation. It is only a temporary system.

 

[Water Pro]

It appears as though you may be a candidate for a whole house RO with no pretreatment required. However these units are expensive. The RO itself would likely be at least $2500 and that's not including a holding tank and re-pressurization pump. costs may run around $5000 more or less (if only 2 people or less in the home), providing you do all the work yourself.

 

[ditttohead]

Whole house RO's can be an excellent device but they do come with regular maintenance and a fairly high price tag, and a large footprint. Here is the newest unit we are manufacturing. It has avery reasonable footprint and includes many important features that most DIY RO systems don't have. Permeate flush, automatic bypass, integrated storage, VFD delivery pump, simple design, ozone tank sanitization etc...
Metsorb has a very finite capacity so be aware that pH, competing contaminants etc. all play a role in the life expectancy of the media.

 

[Alternety]

Just a reiteration of target removal.

As (III and V), Iron, and Manganese, and Copper are critical.

These materials are the primary problem. A university lab generated that list and flagged these items needing to be removed.

Appropriate treatment must be included in any device dealing with these dangerous items in my well.

I am trying to find the most effective solution. There are a bunch of possibilities; I am sort of floating on a sea of options. Not being an expert, picking is tough.

My interim solution is the system in the system shown above. I do not believe it gets As out. I have a two filters but no idea what they are. The vendor refused to tell me. Once the new system is installed I will have those two canisters (10") available for use. If possible, I would put something in them to provide a second set of filters.

I will investigate any complete system you can share with me as a possible solution.

 

[Water Pro]

Just a reiteration of target removal.

As (III and V), Iron, and Manganese, and Copper are critical.

These materials are the primary problem. A university lab generated that list and flagged these items needing to be removed.

Appropriate treatment must be included in any device dealing with these dangerous items in my well.

I am trying to find the most effective solution. There are a bunch of possibilities; I am sort of floating on a sea of options. Not being an expert, picking is tough.

My interim solution is the system in the system shown above. I do not believe it gets As out. I have a two filters but no idea what they are. The vendor refused to tell me. Once the new system is installed I will have those two canisters (10") available for use. If possible, I would put something in them to provide a second set of filters.

I will investigate any complete system you can share with me as a possible solution.

while under .3 mg/l Fe/mang total and under 10 gpg hardness doesn't require pretreatment, removal of these prior to entering the RO would be beneficial for membrane longevity. ditto head might provide further clarification

 

[ditttohead]

Agreed, removal or reduction or even sequestration would be beneficial. The problem is the cost to reduce versus the cost of simply replacing the membranes more frequently. In many commercial RO applications, we would use large softeners... now we use anti-scalant injection when possible. In some applications customers were spending $1000 a year in salt to protect $600 worth of membranes, a quick cost analysis will project the pros/cons of what pre-treatment would make sense. You want a simple approach to a potentially complex problem, I would recommend calling me, I will PM you my number. Trying to treat this in a DIY forum is possible, but as you are seeing it is obviously more complex than a typical DIY forum. I would be glad to guide you, but I have a lot of questions about application etc... and I really don't want to write a tome in a forum that is designed to be a little less technical...

 

[Alternety]

Will an RO device remove As (3/5) in raw water?

 

[Water Pro]

Will an RO device remove As (3/5) in raw water?

yes. well mostly.

 

[ditttohead]

yes. well mostly.

Arsenic + 3

70-80%

Arsenic + 5

94-99%

These are industry standard reasonable expectations, your mileage will vary.