Submersible Well Issue?

[dfixit1]

My 1/2 hp submersible well is 100’ deep in a 5” casing installed in 2005.
I recently checked my diaphragm tank that I installed in 2017. It’s a 36 gallon. My SquareD switch 40-60 Psi.
I drained tank and added air, a couple psi to 38.
My pressure gauge seemed off so I installed a new on from Menards.
After this work I setup an indoor camera on the pressure gauge and it triggers when the pressure switch cycles.
The other day we were away and I received an alert that the wellcam triggered. It ran for 43 minutes and I determined my water softener regenerated. The WaterBoss Pro 380 says 25 gallons for regeneration.
1. Performed a GPM test and with the pump running through a frost free water valve it’s doing 10 gpm.
2. When I replaced the pressure gauge I adjusted SquareD pressure switch adjuster #(1) clockwise about 2 full turns. 40-58 psi.
3. I can draw about 7 gallons when full and pump cycles on. Should be 8.6
4. Diaphragm tank doesn’t seem waterlogged and can see water condensation below diaphragm on tank.
5. If water is being drawn pump seems to run up to 52 psi and stays there until I stop using water and then would slowly fill to 58 psi on the gauge.
6. If you draw water until pump cycles and stop using water it takes 6 minutes to fill and then pump turns off.

Im suspecting the switch and new gauge accuracy is off.
Buying new ones tomorrow.

Does the fill rate of 6 minutes seem right for 10gpm?
Im baffled why my water softener caused the well to run for 43 minutes without any cycles. My live view on the camera showed it holding at 52 psi during regeneration.
thoughts? Thanks

 

[Valveman]

Sounds like you have a Cycle Stop Valve set at 52 psi? Only way that makes sense.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

2. When I replaced the pressure gauge I adjusted SquareD pressure switch adjuster #(1) clockwise about 2 full turns. 40-58 psi.

I did't know what adjuster #1 was, but I see it is the nut on the big spring.

If you adjust the nut on the big spring CW, that should raise both the cut-in and cut-out about 10 psi for each 3.5 turns.

The nut on the small spring is normally not adjusted from the initial differential of 20 psi.

 

[dfixit1]

Sounds like you have a Cycle Stop Valve set at 52 psi? Only way that makes sense.

System doesn’t have a cycle stop valve.
Im at a loss. I will Install a new pressure switch and gauge tomorrow and see if it improves things.

 

[Valveman]

System doesn’t have a cycle stop valve.
Im at a loss. I will Install a new pressure switch and gauge tomorrow and see if it improves things.

Pressure switch is doing what it is supposed to do. It turns the pump on at 40 and off at 58 like it should. Another switch is not going to help. If you only get 10 GPM from a wide open frost free hydrant, you will probably get very little water between 40 and 60 PSI. Your tank holding 7 gallons is about right with a 40/58 pressure switch setting, so tank is still good. Taking 6 minutes to fill 7 gallons in a tank and not cycling on and off while the softener regenerates means the pump is only producing about 1 GPM. I would guess you either have a hole in the drop pipe at the pump or the pump itself is worn out.

 

[dfixit1]

Pressure switch is doing what it is supposed to do. It turns the pump on at 40 and off at 58 like it should. Another switch is not going to help. If you only get 10 GPM from a wide open frost free hydrant, you will probably get very little water between 40 and 60 PSI. Your tank holding 7 gallons is about right with a 40/58 pressure switch setting, so tank is still good. Taking 6 minutes to fill 7 gallons in a tank and not cycling on and off while the softener regenerates means the pump is only producing about 1 GPM. I would guess you either have a hole in the drop pipe at the pump or the pump itself is worn out.

Yeah, just replaced and cycles on at 39 psi and OFF at 58 psi and taking 5-6 minutes to fill. Called a well company to see about replacing pump. Hits that 52 psi mark and takes too long in my opinion to cycle off.

Talked to a local well company and he said 1/2 hp pump is under rated for a 100’ Per my well report. He recommended a 3/4 hp. He quoted $2100 for a Goulds and $140 hr @ 4-5 hours with truck for pulling the pump. Thanks

 

[Valveman]

It is not how deep a pump is set that matters. It is the actual water level it is pumping from. But if it gets anywhere close to the 100' mark I agree with the 3/4HP.

 

[dfixit1]

Well company quoted $1700 to pull and replace with 3/4 hp Pentair-Myers pump. Assuming its a Predator series because he said he uses pumps with stainless coupler between motor and pump?
Im going to pull cap off casing and if it threaded white pipe instead of poly Im going to have it replaced too.

Wondering if my 2 wire 20A circuit and 1” poly to tank is sufficient for 3/4 hp?

 

[Reach4]

Well company quoted $1700 to pull and replace with 3/4 hp Pentair-Myers pump. Assuming its a Predator series because he said he uses pumps with stainless coupler between motor and pump?
Im going to pull cap off casing and if it threaded white pipe instead of poly Im going to have it replaced too.

Wondering if my 2 wire 20A circuit and 1” poly to tank is sufficient for 3/4 hp?

Yes, 20 A is good for 3/4 HP no problem.

Why would you be considering replacing the PVC drop pipe below the pitless? It is going to probably be 20 ft schedule 80. That is what the well people are used to, and it works with their hoist trucks. If you were planning to switch to DIY well work, then polyethylene could have an advantage. But dang, having a pro do it is nice.

 

[dfixit1]

Yes, 20 A is good for 3/4 HP no problem.

Why would you be considering replacing the PVC drop pipe below the pitless? It is going to probably be 20 ft schedule 80. That is what the well people are used to, and it works with their hoist trucks. If you were planning to switch to DIY well work, then polyethylene could have an advantage. But dang, having a pro do it is nice.

My thinking is the threads just contributes to leaking? I watched a very instructive video of a submersible well repair and his company replaced all schedule 80 with poly.
But I will defer that to the well repair company.

 

[dfixit1]

Sounds like you have a Cycle Stop Valve set at 52 psi? Only way that makes sense.

You were riiiiiggggtttt!
Had a stop valve below the pitless adapter. He removed it and tested the pump, voltage draw normal, static water level 75’ and pumping 13 gallons a minute from the pitless adapter. Now my cycle is 2 minutes! He said you must have a 10 gpm pump. Yep according to the well report.
My electric bill will like it. He said he’s only ever seen two stop valves in his business, not common here.
His helper when they pulled it said, what the HE double hockey sticks! Its got a stop valve!

 

[Valveman]

OMG! Make him put it back in! Does he and you not realize how good what you said below is?

5. If water is being drawn pump seems to run up to 52 psi and stays there until I stop using water and then would slowly fill to 58 psi on the gauge.

Without the Cycle Stop Valve the pump will cycle on and off for every 7 gallons used as the pressure continually fluctuates from 40/58 like your pressure switch is set. 2 minutes on and 2 minutes offs sounds good until you need to use water for a while. That can add up to 360 cycles a day when the CSV would have only let the pump cycle once. The 6X extra current it takes for all those extra starts are what your electric bill will see, not to mention needing to replace the pump about 3-4 times as often. Cycle Stop Valves are not common in any area, because installers like selling 3-4 times as many pumps.

Reading back, it looks like that pump and CSV have been in there since 2005 and you replaced the tank in 2017? And that the only problem you think you encountered is the pump running for 6 minutes to fill the tank.

6. If you draw water until pump cycles and stop using water it takes 6 minutes to fill and then pump turns off.

Since the CSV fills the tank at 1 GPM and your tank holds 7 gallons of water, simply adjusting the pressure switch can change the run time to fill that tank from 1 minute to 7 minutes. If the pump is running 6 minutes with the pressure switch set to 40/58, simply lowering the pressure switch to 37/55 would give you a 3 minute run time, and so on. Not that running 6 minutes is hurting anything, but the CSV lets you adjust the run time anyway you want.

That old Cycle Stop Valve (last made that model in 2009) that is still working, is the reason your pump is still working. A lot of people would pay a lot of money to have someone install a CSV in the well and make their pump work the way yours was before you removed the Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[Reach4]

In retrospect, you could have just turned the nut on the big spring of the pressure gauge CCW a bit to bring the shutoff time to about 2 minutes.

 

[dfixit1]

Running constantly for 43 minutes to regen water softener isn’t good. The strain on the pump and impeller fighting the stop valve can’t be good. Time will tell on the electrical use and pump cycling.

 

[dfixit1]

In retrospect, you could have just turned the nut on the big spring of the pressure gauge CCW a bit to bring the shutoff time to about 2 minutes.

If I knew that the well had a stop valve. All indications was the pump was wearing out. Thanks

 

[Reach4]

Running for 43 minutes or 1000 minutes is not a problem. For irrigation, you try to size the emitters to achieve that.

 

[Valveman]

Running constantly for 43 minutes to regen water softener isn’t good. The strain on the pump and impeller fighting the stop valve can’t be good. Time will tell on the electrical use and pump cycling.

On the contrary, running continuously when water is being used is much better than letting the pump cycle on and off even just a few times. The "strain" on the pump is from all the starting without a CSV. The back pressure from the Cycle Stop Valve makes the pump/motor run easier, cooler, and draw lower amps, opposite of what you might think. Put your hand over a blow dryer, vacuum cleaner and stop the flow. Does it bog down the motor, no! You can actually hear the motor speed up because there is no load, it is not moving any air, and the amps will be lower. Same with a pump. Pumping wide open is max amps, most heat, "fighting the motor". Cycling on and off while running wide open or nothing is the worst thing you can do to your pump. A pump man should know a good thing when he sees it, soooo?

 

[Valveman]

If I knew that the well had a stop valve. All indications was the pump was wearing out. Thanks

No, the pump wasn't wearing out. The CSV sized the pump perfectly for any watering job you had. The pump was just not cycling itself to death trying to do many different jobs.

 

[Valveman]

Sounds like you have a Cycle Stop Valve set at 52 psi? Only way that makes sense.

Even in my first post I was trying to figure out why your pump system was working so well.

 

[dfixit1]

No, the pump wasn't wearing out. The CSV sized the pump perfectly for any watering job you had. The pump was just not cycling itself to death trying to do many different jobs.

Above you said this: “Taking 6 minutes to fill 7 gallons in a tank and not cycling on and off while the softener regenerates means the pump is only producing about 1 GPM. I would guess you either have a hole in the drop pipe at the pump or the pump itself is worn out.”

My recommendation for well installers that install a cycle stop valve is label the tank with the stop valve pressure! I label everything with dates etc so that someone doesn’t go through what I just did.
I had called the well company years ago but he had passed. God bless his soul.
The well report didn’t say anything about a cycle stop valve either.