Sand, plastic, and so much more! 1st year new well

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Mr. Mud Maker

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I'm back again with more questions about the wonderful world of wells! first, thank you to Mr Austin for standing by your CSV, and thank you (I think it was) Reach, for the filtration advice. now to the reason for posting again!

I apologize for the long post but local plumbers and well folks have zero answers for me and I've sunk so many thousands into my house water system I'm looking for any help no matter how outside the box! let's get creative!

well/water info: 1hp 20gpm pentair submerged pump, 92' well, 54' static water level, pump at roughly 80', 9 gpm refill rate, hardness 110 gpg, high nitrates and sodium then 150' run to the house.

that runs through a weltrol (sp?) 64 gal pressure tank, 50/70 switch, into an atlas filtri hydra spin down, then a katalox filtration unit to a giant softener to a whole house filter (5 micron)...

Issues:
since this well was dug there has been a constant presence of sand/dirt. enough so that after a month or two the hyrda spin down wouldn't self clean and every 2 weeks I'd have to remove it and brush the filter screen clean and put back in. the spring wasn't strong enough to return the screen to the operational position and it would get stuck. (but we made it work)
there has also been bits of plastic throughout all this in the filter. (some clear, some pvc, and 1 piece of shiny threaded metal)

Our "in well" CSV broke after 1 year and Mr Austin has been more than helpful and generous and we have a replacement ready to go.

since the CSV broke our inflow rate had been around 9gpm and is causing major sand/dirt issues. (filling the spin down with tablespoons of sand every other day and clogging it in a week)

questions:
1: I physically can't pump the well clean because it was an emergency drilling and they put in 40 foot of mill screen since they didn't know the water availability of my area, so the higher the rate of pumping the more debris comes in.

2: due to the sand increasing with the higher pumping rate do I need to put a Dole valve in?

3:if yes, then I'd need to get rid of the KL filter since it requires high flow correct? (my water temp is 60 degrees so 8gpm if my math isn't bad.)

4: since the well is not the cleanest can I even use a csv? Do I need to upgrade to the stainless steel version?

5: what are my options for solutions so that I can get water to the house without all of these issues.

My goal is simply to have water without as much stress. (2 bathrooms) 4 sinks, washing machine and dishwasher, and 1 outside hydrant that I use a 3gpm sprinkler on for the lawn in front.
 

Valveman

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Sorry for your problems. I would think you should still be able to develop the well and pump out most of the crud. With mill screen with big slots it may take a while, like days and days, but eventually stuff will stop or slow way down. If this is not an option I am not sure slowing the flow like with a Dole valve will help either. But you could use a smaller pump and/or a Dole valve to get a very very small flow from the well. At a certain low flow rate sand will settle back down in the moving water and never make it out of the well. Even reduced to 1 GPM a well can make 1440 gallons everyday. You would just need a storage or cistern to store the water so a booster pump could supply the house the flow rate needed for everyday use.

The in well type CSV's will not last long pumping sand like that as you have seen. But the CSV1A, although it will not fit inside the well, is designed to handle considerable debris and should work fine. One thing you might try is using the CSV1A with a small pressure tank like the 4.5 gallon size. Setting the CSV to 50 PSI while using a 50/70 pressure switch can help keep the well from surging. In this way the pump will start at 1 GPM, and the CSV will only open up to match the amount of water you are using. So, when using a 3 GPM shower, the CSV will never let the pump produce more than 3 GPM, similar to a 3 GPM Dole valve. But if you use two showers at the same time the CSV will allow 6 GPM as needed unlike a Dole valve. Set up this way you may never use enough water to get the flow rate high enough to bring up the sand. Might be a good place to start before going the cistern route.
LOW YIELD WELL_ CENTRIFUGAL_PK1A.jpg
 

Mr. Mud Maker

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thank you for the suggestions I'm a fan of the alternative you proposed with the csv1A, the storage tank idea I had thought about and am open to but would prefer not to do that unless nothing else works.

as for developing the well, when it was dug in Sept 2021 I pumped it as much as the water table allowed every 20 minutes of each waking day for 2.5 weeks. the sand never stopped. the well driller who is reputable stated it would never stop with the over pumping due to the double portion of mill screen they used. he said it would only calm down with less water use and recommended 5gpm Dole valve.

regarding the csv1A, are you recommending removing the in well csv I have and removing my current pressure tank then adding that package in? my concern is I have hydrants located before the pressure tank. does that change things? I'm trying to wrap my head around how to position all the water related things in the house. (we only ever use 1 hydrant at a time but there are 3 total)

anyone have ideas on a better sand solution that atlas filtri hydra if I can't get the sand to calm down?

Thank you. so much I genuinely appreciate the effort y'all put into helping random strangers.
 

Fitter30

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My main concern would be the debris that is going through the pump. Like to know more about the 40' mill screen that is 12' from the bottom and screen size?
Spin down filter is physically to small for the debris. Washable bag filter could handle more debris and take only a few minutes to change then can be washed out if you have some spare filters. Want to talk with the pump manufacturer to find out what is the downside for less gpm because at almost total dead head what is the lowest flow you can go without a vfd ( variable frequency drive).
 

Mr. Mud Maker

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according to the well driller, around Central Kansas the normal portion of the well casing that is mill screen is 20ft. since ours was unknown water table (we are in an area with no other wells) and they were drilling on an emergency basis (we had no running water for a month-ish) they went with 40' to increase the likelihood we could get water.

I don't know the size of the milled slots but they said it was the standard size for wells. they put the 40' of screen at the bottom then standard plastic well casing the rest of the 50+ feet.

the pentair pump worked perfectly when operating at lower gpm with the csv running around 3gpm all day when watering the lawn for example.

I've never heard of washable bag filters, I'll look into it. thank you
 

Reach4

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Read about Lakos Sandmaster sand separators. https://www.lakos.com/centrifugal-sand-separators/ Sandmaster has automatic purge available at added cost, of course.

From the diagrams I remember, you put the pressure switch on the inlet, and you connect the pressure tank to the to the Sandmaster output port. So I expect, with a CSV, the csv1A would go between the sandmaster and the pressure tank.



The KL backwash cycle is the one where the high flow is needed, but that is important.
 
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Valveman

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They also make a Lakos that will fit over the pump and filter the sand before it enters the pump.


You can also do this with an extra long flow inducer sleeve. The problem is that the sand gets dropped to the bottom and will fill the well until the pump needs to be pulled and the sand bailed out.

The bag filters they use in lakes will also work, but will need frequent cleaning.

A well that won't stop making sand is a problem and extra expense forever. Since you now know where the water is it might pay to drill a new well and have it gravel packed properly to stop the sand problem.

If the well happens to be large diameter like 8", you can drop a 5" liner and gravel pack between the 5" and 8".

Oh, and BTW, a pump running a full speed can safely pump much lower flow working close to dead head than when using a VFD. Slowing a pump with a VFD means all flow rates are close to dead head.
 
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Mr. Mud Maker

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y'all are great. I checked out the lakos and the version that goes in well won't work with our water table (it requires specific footage of screen and water on top and below that our well can't provide.).

I'll do some math and figure out the most cost effective way forward. thank you all.
 

Reach4

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The KL backwash cycle is the one where the high flow is needed, but that is important.
I have not tried it, but it looks to me as if you could program a 5800SXT to get the KL backwash GPM to come from the pressure tank. This would be by using one of the Othr settings, and having more than one backwash, separated by some low/no-water-use cycle. The first backwash could run shy of water very quickly. But then the pressure tank recharges. The next backwash gets a high volume from the pressure tank.

Same for a 5810SXT if you have that.

If that sounds interesting, we can discuss it.
 
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