New Softener needed, go with WS1 or 5810STX valve?

[Reader90]

Great forum...

Looking for a recommendation...

A extended family member needs a new water softener, replacing a 5+ year old big box store Whirlpool system that was neglected and a few have asked ~ $400-500 to fix/repair....

As such, I am helping and instead of going with same type of system from a big box store, spending the $$ to repair the existing unit, I am recommending a new system. I have found a local dealer that has provided an option that is basically all the same system, with option of a Clack WS1 or a Fleck 5810STX, at the same price. I am good with the sizing (1.5 cu ft) based on usage, understand the hardness (~15 as tested with a Hach 5B kit), will be using 10% cross-link resin (gravel bed too).

Any comments between the two valves pro/con for:

1. Reliability
2. Ease/Cost to repair
3. Ease of programming
4. Data displayed on valve if one wants to look for this info (e.g. soft water left, flow rate, regen status in each step with time left).
5. Ability to update of controller firmware/software (if that is even an option for residential class water conditioning valves)?
6. Any other thoughts that someone might have experience with that is interesting to know?

Thanks in advance

 

[ditttohead]

Ford or Chevy? Both are excellent and both have pros/cons. In general I prefer the 5810 for larger plumbing (1" - 1-1/2"), the WS1 for smaller plumbing (3/4"), but either one will do just fine.

BTW, I just spent the week in Dallas, beautiful city!

 

[Sponsor]

 

[MichaelSK]

I love my Clack. I designed and built a system around it twenty years ago. I have had zero problems. I like the Purolite SST-60 resin. I have 1.5 ft3, and add about 3/4 cup of citric acid dissolved in 2qts warm water with each regeneration to help manage the clear water iron (0.55 ppm). I live in north central Florida and our water is off-the-scale hard. I have no experience with any other control heads - I think dittohead's advice is salient based on experience.

 

[Reach4]

2. Ease/Cost to repair

Expect to only be able to get Clack parts via your local dealer, where you can expect to be able Fleck parts from other Fleck dealers too.

 

[MichaelSK]

Reach4: you touched on a "sore" subject here. The business model surrounding Clack control heads was an obstacle indeed. Those many years ago I sent my spread sheet printouts, water analysis lab data, and a cover letter to a Clack dealer and he was kind enough to ship the requested parts to me so I could build the system. I understand that he could have gotten in Clack trouble for that. I appreciate his assistance to this day.

 

[Reader90]

Thanks all for the responses. As an additional piece of data, the home plumbing is all 1 inch. I can feel good about either solution, also knowing either will be better that the existing solution..... Will let all know which way I end of going...

 

[ditttohead]

20 years ago, time warp...
Clack valves were introduced in 2001 but really didn't become popular until a couple years after that.

 

[Bannerman]

"sore" subject here. The business model surrounding Clack control heads was an obstacle indeed.

Expect to only be able to get Clack parts via your local dealer, where you can expect to be able Fleck parts from other Fleck dealers too.

Just as a new Chevy, Jeep, Toyota etc vehicle and OEM parts can't normally be purchased except through their respective manufacturer authorized dealers, new Clack and Fleck control valves and OEM parts would be similar.

 

[Reach4]

Just as a new Chevy, Jeep, Toyota etc vehicle and OEM parts can't normally be purchased except through their respective manufacturer authorized dealers, new Clack and Fleck control valves and OEM parts would be similar.

You can buy an auto part from dealers in other places. You could order parts from https://www.gmpartsdepot.ca/ or even a Detroit dealer if you wanted.

I think you can even buy OEM parts via an auto parts store, can't you?

 

[Bannerman]

You can buy an auto part from dealers in other places. You could order parts from https://www.gmpartsdepot.ca/ or even a Detroit dealer if you wanted

Exactly my point.

GMpartsdepot.ca is operated by an authorized Chevrolet dealer located in Ottawa, Ontario. Although this may be a dealer for only Chevy vehicles, they are authorized to sell parts for most other GM brands.

Although a refererance is made to ordering parts from a Detroit dealer, again, those would be dealers authorized to sell OEM parts for the vehicle brands they are associated with.

Independent parts stores are often authorized to sell a limited selection of OEM components such as Delco brand brake pads, spark plugs, batteries etc. A full selection of OEM parts is available through each respective brand's dealer network.

If the majority of independent and online dealers who had offered Clack and Fleck's complete line of control valves, had fullfilled each manufacturer's requirements and expectations for after sales customer support, maybe each manufacturer may have continued to allow most of those dealers to offer their newest control valves.

 

[Reach4]

Exactly my point.

That was your point?
Clack would not allow a dealer in Denver to ship a piston to somebody who called from home in Atlanta.

 

[MichaelSK]

Clack it seems has not embraced internet commerce. I wanted to design and build a system, local Clack dealer would only sell a "canned" pre-made system he buys from a distributor. I discussed the design goals, water chemistry (e.g. ionic load, ferrous/ferric iron, alkalinity:hardness, etc.), chosen resin (Purolite SST-60, etc. Frankly folks, I was not even sure he had a clue what I was talking about. He kept trying to sell me an over-sized system and iron filter. I finally located a guy about 110 miles away who actually listened, made insightful comments, and was willing to sell me the Clack control head and other parts I requested via the internet. I still appreciate his help.

 

[ditttohead]

Many items should not be sold "online" for a multitude of reasons. Many things are simply not a DIY item in general. And considering that Clack can barely keep up with manufacturing as it is, do they really need or want the headache of selling to a bunch of people whos only interest is the lowest price from companies that stick their high end control valve onto a system made with absolute garbage components? Imagine somebody taking a Ford F10 body or a Toyota Tercel body and running it to China and having the lowest bidders complete the vehicle... Ford nor Toyota would put up with this for long, eventually they simply stop offering their parts to non licensed dealers. The problems associated with online selling are far more numerous than most people understand. Obviously some of the people on this site are willing to do the necessary research and invest the amount of time needed to make a proper and wise choice. Most people simply read the marketing literature and believe what they read. A good example is the amount of non salt based conditioners we sell. it is staggering how many we put out every day even thought my own in house testing is very hit and miss as to the effectiveness of the scale reduction properties. If you read the marketing literature from almost any seller of these systems you would believe they work better than softening. The other problem is these low price junk companies try to give out Clack or Flecks phone number when something doesn't work. It is usually a simple problem that has nothing to do with the valve other than improper programming. How many people have a proper iron test kit or a Hach 5B or an H2S test kit, Lamotte Spin touch at nearly $1000? Very few so setting the units is nearly impossible. Many of the online companies have either gone away or have raised their prices after taking years of losses or nearly no profit. There will always be guys living in their moms basement running several crappy businesses including water treatment, candles, LED lights and more... it is quite funny to see some of these companies jump onto every new fad, run the price to nothing, then go on to the next piece of junk from overseas. Anyone want a fidget spinner or hoverboard?

Anyway... too long of a topic and not really the place for it. but... would you really trust 90% of millennials to go online, find the cheapest brake parts for their car, then do the repairs themselves and drive on the same road as your kids in order to save ten bucks? Same goes for water treatment, done improperly cross contamination can occur, contaminant dumping and many other serious problems that can cause serious health risks and even death. I totally agree with these companies pulling their units from the online dealers as it greatly reduces their liability and actually increases their sales like it has done for Clack.

 

[Reader90]

Circling back to the beginning of the thread.... Installed a new system for the in-laws. Went Clack WS1-CS 1.5 cu ft softener and separate Clack WS1-TC 1.5 cu ft carbon filter. All 1 inch plumbing at loop. Super simple. Supplier provided all programming, which I will review as it is different than my Fleck system in that it does the brine fill cycle at the beginning -- I just want that to be at the end to more easily add additives, e.g. ResCare (into brine solution vs. salt with no solution). Tested water after regen, no hardness as per Hach 5B test kit.... Immediately went blue.... Attached a picture of system install.

 

[MichaelSK]

Reader90, what was the carbon filter for? Sorry, I can't remember the water chemistry values. But glad to here it's working well.

 

[dbmet]

Just curious where you purchased your system. You can message me if that’s easier and don’t want to post it here.

 

[Reader90]

MichaelSK. Carbon filter is to get rid of city water chlorine (hardness @ ~20 gpg) and other organics in water that is discussed on this forums' best practices. Extends life of the softener resin as well.

Dbmet, after much research, mostly from studying this forum content, Fleck or Clack were only two options I would consider. I figured out who a few suppliers are in my area and was able to procure all equipment directly from them. Apparently, I impressed one supplier enough they were willing to sell direct to me as I knew exactly what I wanted and why. I did need help from a licensed plumber to assist with install. They were not as bullish to Fleck, but believe the real reason was more about "what they knew and trusted about Clack". They could do Fleck equipment, but just did not have the same level of confidence (or experience). I figured if I had problems, and went with Fleck, I would not get the level of support as with a Clack solution from the supplier. So, I went Clack as folks here are saying either Fleck or Clack. I got to learn lots about Clack programming methodology. I have to say, I like Fleck programming better. Just a personal preference.

I cannot say enough good things about either system, i.e. Fleck 5810 based or Clack WS1 valve systems with either Clack or Fleck tanks. Both are very, very solid performing valves. And, using both a carbon filter whole house system and a softener with 10% cross linked resin.

Dittohead, Banner are GREAT resources. Reach4 is great too. Many others as well. Kind of laugh at all of the posts from the not-to-distant past form Gary S - just wow......