Natural Gas Pipe Deflection OK?

[Sylvan]

Drip legs are no longer legal in NYC as it is considered a future connection and when we did use drip legs it was on the vertical The Ell (90 deg) prior to the tee should have been the tee and vertically the drip leg would be installed

Tee nipple Union Nipple and do away with the ell and make the vertical straight

The intaller failed to install 2 shut off valves for the heater but for $350 they had to cut corners

Looks like white Teflon tape was used NOT allowed on gas piping ..Yellow is approved

The ceiling above the heater should be fire proofed either sheet rock or metal

The gas piping needs to be supported with a Clevis hanger by the reducing ell at the ceiling

Unions should be installed close to the appliance not so far away

The piping looks used also a code violation ( in NYC) as any piping not used for potable water shall not be reused

Failure to use insulation on the hot water pipes is a code violation of the energy code

If the union was placed closer to the tank then longer nipples could be used to make the vertical line straight

When connecting to an existing painted gas line the intregrity test pressure is increased from 3 PSI to 100 PSI tgo make sure there is no hiden defects

Also all gas piping must be marked "Gas pipe" even though it is obvious

 

[Sylvan]

Just in case you wanted more information

403.2 Used Materials

Used pipe, fittings, valves and other materials shall not be reused


408.2 Drips

Where the local gas supplier/utility company requires, a manufactured test fitting or drip leg shall be installed downstream of a lockable supply/riser valve in accordance with the requirements for installation of the serving utility. No other locations will be allowed to prevent additional unapproved gas connections.



408.4 Sediment Trap

Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the appliance, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the appliance shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the appliance as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting having a capped nipple of any length installed vertically in the bottom most opening of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers, decorative vented appliances for installation in vented fireplaces, gas fireplaces, and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.



https://www.energycodes.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cn_residential_hot_water_piping.pdf

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jeff H Young]

Just in case you wanted more information

403.2 Used Materials

Used pipe, fittings, valves and other materials shall not be reused


408.2 Drips

Where the local gas supplier/utility company requires, a manufactured test fitting or drip leg shall be installed downstream of a lockable supply/riser valve in accordance with the requirements for installation of the serving utility. No other locations will be allowed to prevent additional unapproved gas connections.



408.4 Sediment Trap

Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the appliance, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the appliance shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the appliance as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting having a capped nipple of any length installed vertically in the bottom most opening of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers, decorative vented appliances for installation in vented fireplaces, gas fireplaces, and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.



https://www.energycodes.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cn_residential_hot_water_piping.pdf

Thanks for the many good points some i noticed some I didnt . Many Ive never heard of. Like a drip leg being illegal So for 100 years you couldnt live without them and now you cant have them. We were the opposite never needed them befor and now we gotta put them on.
Im interested to know common practice in NYC. Do they even have single family detached homes like most Americans live in?
Out here in CA permits arent pulled in most cases. I would guess 10percent tops? Im guessing with those restrictions a low percentage as well. Also does your tough restriction cause better compliance or even worse cheating?
If you have homes similar to most places , How much do you think a 40 or 50 gal gas fired WH install in a common basement would run just for labor , mark up , and time to pull permit. Basicaly the total of everything not including the parts or permit , lic, or cost of heater. Like one posted on this thread. An average price to install , bring to your NYC code? I would be around 600 , 400 if they pull permit. I know its much lower than city

 

[Sylvan]

Installing a 50 gallon 10 year WH we charge $1,800 - $2,200 plus tax

In my area 10471 most of the houses are not attached https://www.movoto.com/ny/10471/single-family/

The Condos are attaced in most cases https://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/riverdale/hayden-hudson-4465-douglas-avenue/61636

The reason no drip legs are required is the gas is considered dry... The more methane natural gas contains, the dryer it is.

Also we had a bunch of idiots that would use the drip leg as a supply line and run lines illegally and some morons saw a drip leg in a building and had no clue as to why it was threre and they worked outside and installed drip legs for the ac /heating units on the roof which froze and caused leaks



We were called to hook up the stoves after the risers were replaced by others and the filing fee alone was $100 my cost

We lost the job but someone did install the stoves and I doubt they were licensed https://streeteasy.com/building/river-point-towers

We do commercial , industrial ,residential and institutional and I try not to work in lower Manhattan any more as parking is terrible and going from the east side to the west can be over an hour and it is less then 3 miles

The more restrictions the more people look to hire handymen or DIY

Some plumbers take a chance and here is the result

Year

Date

License type

License #

Name

Company

Disposition
2020 4/17/2020 Licensed Master Plumber #000868 Wasoff, Marvin Wasoff Plumbing and Utility Co.;
East Port Excavation Inc. Fine & Probation. Basis: Negligence, Incompetence, lack of knowledge, and disregard of the Code a related laws and rules.
2020 3/9/2020 Licensed Master Plumber #001762 Buono, Valentino MPI Plumbing Corp.; Precision Plumbing Services, Inc.; Hydro Tech Mechanical Corp. Licenses Revoked. http://archive.citylaw.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/oath/18_cases/18-1899.pdf.
2020 1/23/2020 Licensed Master Plumber #001387 Rudnitsky, Ira CM Plumbing Inc. Fine. Basis: Negligence, incompetence, lack of knowledge, and/or disregard of the Code and related laws and rules.
2019 12/23/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #00814 Ugarkovic, Zeljan Adriatic Plumbing & Heating Corp. Fine and 1 year probation. Basis: Work noted outside the scope of LAA permit.
2019 12/20/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #009646 Grand, William Zara Plumbing Corp. License Revoked. Basis: Violation of stipulation of settlement executed June 2018.
2019 12/9/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #002260 Alvarez, Santiago SP Plumbing and Heating 1 year suspension followed by 1 year probation & fine. Basis: Negligence, incompetence, lack of knowledge and disregard of the Code, related laws and rules.
2019 10/1/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #000907 Pepe, James DPH Plumbing & Heating
JMW Plumbing, Inc. Disposition - Fine and 1 year probation. Basis: Licensee was disciplined for performing work without a permit, performing work in violation of a stop work order and for failure to have a sign displayed at his place of business.
2019 3/8/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #002212 Rugg, Kevin J. Donato, Inc. Disposition - Fine and Probation. Basis: Licensee was disciplined for performing work without a permit.
2019 3/7/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #002084 Morales, Misael Sasso Mechanical Inc.
Top Plumbing System Inc. Disposition- Revoked. Basis: Negligence, incompetence, lack of knowledge, and disregard of the New York City Administrative Code and related laws and rules.
2019 2/19/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #761 Held, Gabi Retcon Mechanical
Safety Plumbing & Heating LLC Fine + 18 Months Probation. Basis: Licensee was disciplined for not being properly established, violation of the direct and continuing supervision requirement and for failure to disclose prior disciplinary action.



Professional Engineers & Registered Architects

When you read
Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privilege

It usually means the person was offered an out or jail time

a offer they could not refuse



Disposition
2020 6/2/2020 Registered Architect #027491 Hyun, Minsoo Innation Engineering, PC Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective June 2, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 5/27/2020 Registered Architect #035645 Teeter, Christopher Christopher Teeter, R.A. Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective May 27, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 5/22/2020 Registered Architect #015478 Porter, Brent M. Brent M. Porter Architect and Associates; and Fernwood Design & Associates Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective May 22, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 5/1/2020 Professional Engineer #085125 Ruditser, Oleg Oleg Ruditser, P.E. Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective May 1, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 5/1/2020 Registered Architect #017036 King, Robert Arthur Robert Arthur King Architect PC; and B&W Architects Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective May 1, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 4/20/2020 Registered Architect #025617 Concepcion, Jose A. Jose Concepcion, R.A. and Architecture Design PLLC Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective April 20, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 4/1/2020 Professional Engineer #063960 Somefun, Anthony Anthony Somefun PE Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective April 1, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 3/31/2020 Registered Architect #011907 Dickman, Edward Edward W. Dickman Architects Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective March 31, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 3/1/2020 Professional Engineer #036941 Kusnitz, Irving M. Irving M. Kusnitz, PE Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective March 1, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 2/28/2020 Professional Engineer #049434 Suben, Victor Royal Engineering P.C.;
VS Consulting Engineering, P.C.;
Best Professionals NY Corp Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective February 28, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.

 

[Sylvan]

There are a lot more plumbers /fire suppression engineers who lost their license or were fined this is only 6 months into the year

Most of the plumber lost their license because of lack of knowledge of the code changes or did not bother to file a job or failed a few inspections

Even though I was allowed to do self inspections even on gas piping I always called for a phyical inspection so I have a whitness the job was properly completed

I used to do some self inspections but after the explosion in Manhattan it as ntworth the risk of someone coming behind us and connecton to the gas line

 

[Sylvan]

Replacing a 40 - 50 gallon tank we chare $1,800 -$ 2.400 plus tax

Unlike the movies the Bronx in my area 10471 most of the houses are not attached https://www.trulia.com/for_sale/Riverdale,NY/SINGLE-FAMILY_HOME_type/

Because of the new rules in effect many of the co ops are using handymen to install a stove as a licensed plumber when I file a stove repleaceemnt I have to pay $100 filing fees

I had this accunt for over 30 years but once I gave them the price to reinstall all the stoves with filing as someone else instlled the risers I guess they used a non licensed plumber https://streeteasy.com/building/river-point-towers

If a plumber is stupid enough to try not to get permit they may lose their license plus face possible jail time. The non licensed guy just pays a fine as they do not know better

Licensed Plumbers

\
Disposition
2020 4/17/2020 Licensed Master Plumber #000868 Wasoff, Marvin Wasoff Plumbing and Utility Co.;
East Port Excavation Inc. Fine & Probation. Basis: Negligence, Incompetence, lack of knowledge, and disregard of the Code a related laws and rules.
2020 3/9/2020 Licensed Master Plumber #001762 Buono, Valentino MPI Plumbing Corp.; Precision Plumbing Services, Inc.; Hydro Tech Mechanical Corp. Licenses Revoked. http://archive.citylaw.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/oath/18_cases/18-1899.pdf.
2020 1/23/2020 Licensed Master Plumber #001387 Rudnitsky, Ira CM Plumbing Inc. Fine. Basis: Negligence, incompetence, lack of knowledge, and/or disregard of the Code and related laws and rules.
2019 12/23/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #00814 Ugarkovic, Zeljan Adriatic Plumbing & Heating Corp. Fine and 1 year probation. Basis: Work noted outside the scope of LAA permit.
2019 12/20/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #009646 Grand, William Zara Plumbing Corp. License Revoked. Basis: Violation of stipulation of settlement executed June 2018.
2019 12/9/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #002260 Alvarez, Santiago SP Plumbing and Heating 1 year suspension followed by 1 year probation & fine. Basis: Negligence, incompetence, lack of knowledge and disregard of the Code, related laws and rules.
2019 10/1/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #000907 Pepe, James DPH Plumbing & Heating
JMW Plumbing, Inc. Disposition - Fine and 1 year probation. Basis: Licensee was disciplined for performing work without a permit, performing work in violation of a stop work order and for failure to have a sign displayed at his place of business.
2019 3/8/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #002212 Rugg, Kevin J. Donato, Inc. Disposition - Fine and Probation. Basis: Licensee was disciplined for performing work without a permit.
2019 3/7/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #002084 Morales, Misael Sasso Mechanical Inc.
Top Plumbing System Inc. Disposition- Revoked. Basis: Negligence, incompetence, lack of knowledge, and disregard of the New York City Administrative Code and related laws and rules.
2019 2/19/2019 Licensed Master Plumber #761 Held, Gabi Retcon Mechanical
Safety Plumbing & Heating LLC Fine + 18 Months Probation. Basis: Licensee was disciplined for not being properly established, violation of the direct and continuing supervision requirement and for failure to disclose prior disciplinary action.

It is not just plumbers


Professional Engineers & Registered Architects



Disposition
2020 6/2/2020 Registered Architect #027491 Hyun, Minsoo Innation Engineering, PC Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective June 2, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 5/27/2020 Registered Architect #035645 Teeter, Christopher Christopher Teeter, R.A. Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective May 27, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 5/22/2020 Registered Architect #015478 Porter, Brent M. Brent M. Porter Architect and Associates; and Fernwood Design & Associates Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective May 22, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 5/1/2020 Professional Engineer #085125 Ruditser, Oleg Oleg Ruditser, P.E. Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective May 1, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 5/1/2020 Registered Architect #017036 King, Robert Arthur Robert Arthur King Architect PC; and B&W Architects Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective May 1, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 4/20/2020 Registered Architect #025617 Concepcion, Jose A. Jose Concepcion, R.A. and Architecture Design PLLC Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective April 20, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 4/1/2020 Professional Engineer #063960 Somefun, Anthony Anthony Somefun PE Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective April 1, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 3/31/2020 Registered Architect #011907 Dickman, Edward Edward W. Dickman Architects Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective March 31, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 3/1/2020 Professional Engineer #036941 Kusnitz, Irving M. Irving M. Kusnitz, PE Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective March 1, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.
2020 2/28/2020 Professional Engineer #049434 Suben, Victor Royal Engineering P.C.;
VS Consulting Engineering, P.C.;
Best Professionals NY Corp Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification and Directive 14 privileges, effective February 28, 2020. Basis: Multiple failed audits.

When you see " Voluntary Surrender of Professional Certification " it usually means NYC made them an offer they could not refuse to avoid jail time

It is only half way though the year and this is only page one of those who got fouled up

The filing in theroy supposed to make it safer from gas explosions but now because of the added costs many people use non licensed people or just dont file and they take a chance

I am allowed to do self inspections from the 1980's but decided not to as I want an inspector to see the actual work just in case someone comes behind me and taps into a line

 

[KC27]

The $350 was for installation only. Is that low? I paid a plumbing company $1800 for the previous 50 gallon Bradford White unit, and that included installation. I think the Bradford White heater itself was around $1400.

The flawed install probably boils down to a communication screw up on my part. Everyone has their own idea of what is acceptable. I probably should have specified from the start that I would like the install to look at least as good as the existing installation. I will either get someone who knows what they are doing to help me make corrections, or will get another plumber to come in and get it squared away.

 

[Phog]

That equipment price sounds high for a 50 gallon gas water heater, in 2016 i self-installed a Kenmore 65 gallon high recovery gas unit, atmospheric vent and that set me back around $700 for the tank (not including any other parts). I see you have a direct vent though which is a little more pricey.

 

[Jeff H Young]

The $350 was for installation only. Is that low? I paid a plumbing company $1800 for the previous 50 gallon Bradford White unit, and that included installation. I think the Bradford White heater itself was around $1400.

The flawed install probably boils down to a communication screw up on my part. Everyone has their own idea of what is acceptable. I probably should have specified from the start that I would like the install to look at least as good as the existing installation. I will either get someone who knows what they are doing to help me make corrections, or will get another plumber to come in and get it squared away.

I think the 350 price would be low if he had to go pull a permit and did top notch work. Some of what we found wrong are minor (at least to me) but none the less are deviation of code. just like tearing a mattres tag is illegal. Not insulating the copper isnt going to kill any one. or whether or not a union is on the copper. but as a profesional we have a duty to do it right. It does comedown to you get what you pay for but what you pay for you dont always get!
1800 to 2400 is a lot more to charge than 350 Im sure Sylvan would do a great job though!
As for the drip leg we didnt put them on here for decades so yes his drip leg is improper but how important it is is debateable but what is not debatable at least where I live whether or not you need one and here we do need it because coder requires it.

 

[Sylvan]

Jeff If you read the tag "just like tearing a mattres tag is illegal"

The new owner of a matress is allowed to remove the tag.

The reason for the tag is so an unscrouplous person will not sell a used matress as new.

I found that under a health code decades ago as I was curious as to who would actually inspect all the mattres

The stoves were removed when the riser was replaced and the contractor did connect them as part of his contract as to pass inspection the appliances had to be hooked up

After the inspection the stoves were removed so the piping behind the walls could be closed in again


They asked me to just reconnect the stoves which I gave a price of $350 each no mateirals

412 stoves connected to existing gas cocks using the new flexis already installed that were disconnected from the stove

The job would gross $103,000 for just labor after filing fees.

I figured each employee could install an average of 10 a day (actually more) would be $2,500 per man per day in billing

I was considering paying them by the stove $50 each so I had my fixed rate

 

[Jeff H Young]

Jeff If you read the tag "just like tearing a mattres tag is illegal"

The new owner of a matress is allowed to remove the tag.

The reason for the tag is so an unscrouplous person will not sell a used matress as new.

I found that under a health code decades ago as I was curious as to who would actually inspect all the mattres

The stoves were removed when the riser was replaced and the contractor did connect them as part of his contract as to pass inspection the appliances had to be hooked up

After the inspection the stoves were removed so the piping behind the walls could be closed in again


They asked me to just reconnect the stoves which I gave a price of $350 each no mateirals

412 stoves connected to existing gas cocks using the new flexis already installed that were disconnected from the stove

The job would gross $103,000 for just labor after filing fees.

I figured each employee could install an average of 10 a day (actually more) would be $2,500 per man per day in billing

I was considering paying them by the stove $50 each so I had my fixed rate

 

[Jeff H Young]

Mattress tag reference kind of a joke on inmportant laws I know you can tear them off. . I didn’t See Teflon tape but as far as I know if it’s white it’s not gas rated. Though I’ve done a lot of reasearch and couldn’t figure out why. I’ve used it for decades had many an argument but now If I’m working for a contractor I ask him Once if he says use it I do . Interesting you mentioned reinstalling used parts? Would that include from the gas cock to the control? All new pipe and fittings , gas cock?

 

[Sylvan]

The plumbing codes I read stated b asically any piping used other then for potable water shall not be reused. The intention of the code is once it is taken out (removed ) it cannot be used again.

There is nothing about using existing piping and fittings but they maybe required to be tested

If I were to remove the existing gas cock on a 27 story building which I did I was required to test the entire riser good tihng it was T&M