Long duration (trickle) re-generation?

[Ĝan Ŭesli Starling]

I have received different recommendations from vendors based on my water report.

Water Quality in mg/L as follows: Calcium 52.3, Iron 1.206, Iron-Dissolved 1.154, Magnesium 15.11, Manganese 0.081, Hardness 190, pH 7.6, TDS 300, Turbidity 1.5 NTU, Tannin/Lignin 0.6. The test did not report on iron ochre bacteria, but I am certain we have some. Full report is attached.

Household is two senior adults, with occasional guest. House has single bathroom, full size washer, and a dishwasher. I measured my flow-rate at 9 gpm from a a basement faucet having six right-angle bends in 1/2-inch copper pipe between it and pressure tank.

Well is 8 years old, drilled 42 feet through sand until clay and has a 20-foot drop (whatever that means). Pump is 1/2 HP Sta-Rite.

Have been recommended as follows:

A. Single system using Ecomix-C, 1.5 CF. Don't remember size tank.
B. Dual system comprised of Katalox Lite 1.0 CF, Softener 1.5 CF, Vortech 1054 tanks on both.

One thing I am wanting to do is have minimal impact upon the environment. This by using the salt most efficiently while still maintaining my investment in hardware to best effect.

One vendor I spoke with at some length mentioned long-duration re-generation (as in a trickle of flow). I am wanting to know more about this. Please someone explain that? Other observations likewise welcome.

 

[Reach4]

One vendor I spoke with at some length mentioned long-duration re-generation (as in a trickle of flow). I am wanting to know more about this. Please someone explain that? Other observations likewise welcome.

This involves using a smaller injector (the venturi pump that pulls the brine from the tank), and increasing the brine draw (BD) cycle minutes accordingly.

For bacteria, iron and otherwise, I would do a better well and plumbing sanitizing. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my writeup, which is much more time-consuming than what most people do.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

Eco-Mix is a great media and has been very successful for many difficult water applications where minimal equipment is desired. it is not typically considered "efficient" for a multitude of reasons. The KL and softener would be the better choice if you are not dealing with tannins and you want to have reasonable salt efficiency.

 

[Ĝan Ŭesli Starling]

...Have been recommended as follows:

A. Single system using Ecomix-C, 1.5 CF. Don't remember size tank.
B. Dual system comprised of Katalox Lite 1.0 CF, Softener 1.5 CF, Vortech 1054 tanks on both.

Regarding option B, price quoted was $2,400. Does that seem about right?

 

[ditttohead]

Local company... sounds good as long as it is a real Fleck or Clack, not some cheap counterfeit or knockoff valve. I would recommend matching the tanks at 1.5 ft each. It should add very little cost, will look better, and I don't really see a reason why they would go smaller. The backwash rate will increase slightly from a 9" tank to a 10" tank but not that much.

 

[Reach4]

What backwash gpm is available from the pump?

 

[Ĝan Ŭesli Starling]

What backwash gpm is available from the pump?

1/2 HP Sta-Rite pumps are rated at 5 gpm. I recall the well-drilling company also stating 5 gpm when I asked over the phone.

So that as a minimum, yes?, whenever the pressure tank bleeds down to its lower limit threshold of 35 PSI.

And I measured 9 gpm (5 gals in 33 seconds) into a 6-gal container from a hose hooked up to the first indoor faucet down in the basement.

 

[Reach4]

1/2 HP Sta-Rite pumps are rated at 5 gpm. I recall the well-drilling company also stating 5 gpm when I asked over the phone.

So that as a minimum, yes?, whenever the pressure tank bleeds down to its lower limit threshold of 35 PSI.

And I measured 9 gpm (5 gals in 33 seconds) into a 6-gal container from a hose hooked up to the first indoor faucet down in the basement.

There is a good chance the pressure was not staying at 30 psi or more during that test. I can see that with your pump, a 9 inch tank has its pluses. For the same bed expansion, a 9 in tank only needs 81% the gpm as a 10 inch tank does.

10 inch tank:

 

[Skyjumper]

I see you are in West Michigan. I'm from Holland originally. many fond memories of the west michigan coast.

I have a Katalox filter. My advice --- skip it, you don't need it, and it will cause many headaches. unless you are the kind of person that enjoys doing coolant flushes on your car every 3 months. and frankly, I am that kind of person, and I'm still fed up with KL.

Ecomix - i have no experience with it, but I strongly suspect you'd be better off with a standard water softener. why? because it seems highly unlikely those extra layers of media will stay put, and once everything mixes together it seems it would just create channels for hardness & iron to leak through, etc. furthermore, simply replacing some resin with a small layer of filter media doesn't make much sense to me -- iron fitlers need to be backwashed frequently, even moreso if we're talking about a minimal layer of media - plan on every night. otherwise it will clog and make matters worse. heck, I backwash my 1.5ft3 KL tank every night. but you don't want to be regenerating the softener resin every night that'd be a huge waste of salt. so how exactly is this supposed to work? too many unknowns, too much risk. I'd avoid it. In practice I'd bet the filter media layer does nothing and the softener resin does all the water conditioning, and the customer has no clue. if anything the filter media just reduces the capacity of the softener.

So - I'd go with Option C: get a really good standard 48k grain water softener and use it to soften the water and remove the iron. I suggest a Clack unit. Make sure its programmed properly to deal with the iron, and use resin cleaners with every regeneration to keep it clean. This will give you good performance with minimal hassle and expense.

 

[Ĝan Ŭesli Starling]

Ecomix - I have no experience with it, but I strongly suspect you'd be better off with a standard water softener. why? because it seems highly unlikely those extra layers of media will stay put...

Not advocating in favor of Ecomix, just only relating something from their manual. Reportedly the media self-stratify with every backwash. The media comes in bags with no separation. Hence there is a warning requiring an immediate first backwash after installing the media. This because they won't have stratified otherwise, and it simply won't work.

I've been wondering about this myself. How, exactly, do they self-stratify during a backwash? I can only presume it is by each type of self-layering media having a different specific mass. Bottom layers heavier, top layer lightest.

In apparent evidence of this, there is a further requirement of a TOP basket, so that media are not lost during backwash. This gives me to think that the topmost layer is light indeed, able to swirl all the way to the top of the tank. Thus a top basket required to prevent it being flushed entirely out.

 

[Ĝan Ŭesli Starling]

I suggest a Clack unit. Make sure its programmed properly to deal with the iron, and use resin cleaners with every regeneration to keep it clean.

Please explain. How aught I program a Clack to deal with the iron? How differently from otherwise?

 

[Ĝan Ŭesli Starling]

I have a Katalox filter. My advice --- skip it, you don't need it, and it will cause many headaches.

As you originate from just a cannon shot to my south, you'll be also familiar with the orange semi-circles on the siding of every house where lawn irrigation sprinklers have distributed a mis-aimed fan of untreated water.

As my water comes out of the well clear to the eye, but then turns orange slowly upon exposure to air ... and also comes out of a faucet initially with a slight odor (because of a portion of trapped water above the turn-off valve likewise exposed to air) ... and also that bacteria slime, orange in color, develops over time in a bleach-cleaned toilet tank ... it is fairly certain that my well also draws in IRON OCRE bacteria, common in ground water throughout the whole region.

And one of the things which peaked my interest about a particular Katalox Lite system was its secondary effect of killing bacteria. Not the media itself, but when re-generated using OZONE. And ozone, so I had elsewhere read, is more deadly to bacteria than even chlorine. So I had thought that might be worth the expense.

I now wonder, however, how persistent would be the ozone? If only intermittently present, then its effect would be likewise intermittent.

 

[Reach4]

I've been wondering about this myself. How, exactly, do they self-stratify during a backwash? I can only presume it is by each type of self-layering media having a different specific mass. Bottom layers heavier, top layer lightest.

The layering would be controlled by a combination of density and particle size. Smaller particles of similar density would settle slower. I have no action item for you.

 

[Water Pro]

Not advocating in favor of Ecomix, just only relating something from their manual. Reportedly the media self-stratify with every backwash. The media comes in bags with no separation. Hence there is a warning requiring an immediate first backwash after installing the media. This because they won't have stratified otherwise, and it simply won't work.

I've been wondering about this myself. How, exactly, do they self-stratify during a backwash? I can only presume it is by each type of self-layering media having a different specific mass. Bottom layers heavier, top layer lightest.

In apparent evidence of this, there is a further requirement of a TOP basket, so that media are not lost during backwash. This gives me to think that the topmost layer is light indeed, able to swirl all the way to the top of the tank. Thus a top basket required to prevent it being flushed entirely out.

I'm not a big fan of mixing media (other than cation and anion). Each media has a different requirement for backwash flow. This inevitably leads to some media (the heaviest) not being in solution (during backwash).

 

[Skyjumper]

... it is fairly certain that my well also draws in IRON OCRE bacteria, common in ground water throughout the whole region.

And one of the things which peaked my interest about a particular Katalox Lite system was its secondary effect of killing bacteria. Not the media itself, but when re-generated using OZONE. And ozone, so I had elsewhere read, is more deadly to bacteria than even chlorine. So I had thought that might be worth the expense.

I now wonder, however, how persistent would be the ozone? If only intermittently present, then its effect would be likewise intermittent.

Please explain. How aught I program a Clack to deal with the iron? How differently from otherwise?

yes, your IRB needs to be controlled. a Katalox filter will just clog with IRB slime if not dealt with -- the below photo show what my air injection KL filter looked like due to my own IRB neglect. I have not used Ozone but in theory yes it should kill off the IRB so long as the O3 is present. This would probably only be during regeneration of the filter, after which the O3 would dissipate as I understand it. But that's better than just plain air which actually promotes the IRB. I have found the most effective way to control IRB is to shock the well with bleach. and then periodically sanitize the KL tank with bleach (I do that every 6 weeks).

But you can still control IRB with just the softener - by using resin cleaners with every regeneration to flush away the iron. no iron, no IRB. I did this for about 18 months on a softener that had been assaulted with iron and IRB for 3 years prior and had completely stopped working. the resin cleaners brought it back to life and eliminated the IRB in the finished water.

Just be aware if you get a KL filter it will not be "set it & forget it". it will require regular maintenance. and you should get a good iron test kit to monitor the iron leakage weekly so you can take action when needed. with mine I clean the KL media every 4-6 weeks, remove & clean the injector about once a month, and replace the seals/spacers every 9-12 months. and i still get about 0.4ppm Fe leakage. but that's better than nothing.

as for softener programming --- the idea is to add 3 grains hardness for each ppm Fe, and then don't use the most efficient salt settings because you will need more brine (with the added resin cleaners) to effectively flush out the enrapped iron. and also set it to regenerate a bit sooner than necessary for additional margin. for example, my raw water at the moment is 30gpg hardness and 2ppm Fe. (ignore my KL filter for the moment). I have a 48k grain Clack softener. I have it programmed for 900 gallons and 15lbs salt per regeneration. In theory I could probably set it for about 1,100 gals, but I don't want to deal with the consequences of my wife having iron & H2S in her morning shower....

 

[Water Pro]

As you originate from just a cannon shot to my south, you'll be also familiar with the orange semi-circles on the siding of every house where lawn irrigation sprinklers have distributed a mis-aimed fan of untreated water.

As my water comes out of the well clear to the eye, but then turns orange slowly upon exposure to air ... and also comes out of a faucet initially with a slight odor (because of a portion of trapped water above the turn-off valve likewise exposed to air) ... and also that bacteria slime, orange in color, develops over time in a bleach-cleaned toilet tank ... it is fairly certain that my well also draws in IRON OCRE bacteria, common in ground water throughout the whole region.

And one of the things which peaked my interest about a particular Katalox Lite system was its secondary effect of killing bacteria. Not the media itself, but when re-generated using OZONE. And ozone, so I had elsewhere read, is more deadly to bacteria than even chlorine. So I had thought that might be worth the expense.

I now wonder, however, how persistent would be the ozone? If only intermittently present, then its effect would be likewise intermittent.

combined with KL it's capable of successful (long term) treatment of IRB and oxidizing 2 ppm Fe and 1 ppm Mn. it will treat 3.5 Fe and 2 ppm Mn with periodic maintenance (cleaning of upper basket).

 

[Water Pro]

I'm not a big fan of mixing media (other than cation and anion). Each media has a different requirement for backwash flow. This inevitably leads to some media (the heaviest) not being lifted (during backwash).

 

[Reach4]

And one of the things which peaked my interest about a particular Katalox Lite system was its secondary effect of killing bacteria. Not the media itself, but when re-generated using OZONE. And ozone, so I had elsewhere read, is more deadly to bacteria than even chlorine. So I had thought that might be worth the expense.

I have wondered why it was not common to treat the KL with a chlorine bleach solution, from a solution tank, during regen, and then rinse it out.

Ozone during regen sounds good, and since it would be locally produced, no solution tank to fill. I wonder how that all works in practice.

 

[Water Pro]

I have wondered why it was not common to treat the KL with a chlorine bleach solution, from a solution tank, during regen, and then rinse it out.

Ozone during regen sounds good, and since it would be locally produced, no solution tank to fill. I wonder how that all works in practice.

KL alone doesn't work very well. Unless your dealing with all ferric iron (which is not likely) it needs an oxidizer. Chlorine requires retention, so your left with H202 or ozone as an oxidizer. Chlorine forms chlorine gas when mixed with ozone and foam when mixed with H2O2. If you've ever put peroxide on a cut it's apparent.